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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ayasugi Since: Oct, 2010
#327526: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:17:07 PM

[up][up] You mean he sounds presidential.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#327527: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:18:21 PM

@Tobias Drake Yeah, something I once mentioned is that the problem with this is that it's essentially still a Eurocentric view of the world, only with White People as the Villain Protagonist rather than as the heroes. I tend to call it "Dark Eurocentricism" consequently.

Mind you, I don't think most Dark Eurocentricist narratives try to portray the atrocities committed against them as justifiable in any way. It's more like they portray the atrocities committed against them as the only event in their history. Basically, in Dark Eurocentricism, the world was an inert garden of eden and history is the story of how white people ruined it.

Basically, non-Whites in this form of narrative are Always Lawful Good and lack any agency, existing solely to be crushed by the white man. They're inert and helpless, never impacting history, never influencing the world, never inventing new things, etc.

Leviticus 19:34
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327528: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:29:08 PM

[up] There is a white variant of this as well, namely the "stone age society was a feminist (read: matriarchal) paradise until men mucked it all up".

I think it would be really hard to break away from Eurocentrism though, simply because Europe has the most extensive amount of written sources going back much farther than many other regions of the world. Even China runs into this, thanks to certain historical events effectively erasing their own history.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327529: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:31:42 PM

Well, the oldest written historical records going around are the Middle East and North Africa, for some fairly obvious reasons.

Probably helped by the fact that cuneiform and hieratic etc. were also written on something way easier to preserve than bones.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 17th 2020 at 4:32:37 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#327530: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:33:15 PM

Speaking as a (ex)history professor, history is nothing but politics. All of history.

For example: Carthage is a civilization destroyed 2170 years ago and yet there is still an ongoing academic fight over whether or not they practiced human sacrifice of their first born [they did]. This is due to the fact it was an enemy of Rome and North African civilization with traditions that were shared with some Biblical enemies of the Jews.

As such, the people who support Carthage have included:

  • Tunisia Nationalists
  • Anti-Semites
  • Anti-Romans
  • Guys just trying to make a name for themselves

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 17th 2020 at 8:34:33 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#327531: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:34:30 PM

Well, the oldest written historical records going around are the Middle East and North Africa, for some fairly obvious reasons.

Probably helped by the fact that cuneiform and hieratic etc. were also written on something way easier to preserve than bones.

Yeah, but white people are pretty sure that the people featured in those early Middle Eastern records were white. Arabic people just happened later, I guess.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327532: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:35:40 PM

Yes, but those records are not particularly extensive, and their topics tend to be limited to administration. There is only so much history we can glean from ancient receipts, trade deals, inventories, and lists of rulers.

Actual historical exploration only really starts once writing moves beyond being simply an administrative tool.

[up] I know what you mean, but at some point in history that question becomes pretty complicated, especially in the Eurasiatic region where some major migrations happened. A lot of peoples who we now consider white stem from a major central Asian expansion into Europe and India, for example.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 17th 2020 at 5:41:16 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327533: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:38:16 PM

I'm pretty certain at that point we're still talking the Middle East, especially given the extensiveness of hieratic. Europe doesn't get involved until... Linear A? And I think even then it's not until Linear B that goes off into the Phoenician Script and then gets dragged all over the place that we then get anything resembling modern alphabets and prevalent documentation in Europe. Where it was still mostly formal stuff anyway.

But I'm bad at remembering how all the damn scripts intertwined. I think it was Linear B that lead to everything else? Bah.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#327534: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:43:12 PM

To me it seems like the obvious solution would be taking into account the oral history of peoples. Oral history is history all the same, just with its obvious caveats. Dismissing oral history outright (even in cases when there's no other alternative) is a very Eurocentric way of looking at history, after all ("oh you happened to not record your history like we decided it should be recorded? You have no history then, sorry!").

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327535: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:45:16 PM

The problem with oral history is that we often don't know any of it until it gets written down in the first place. And then there's the problem that oral traditions evolve all the time. If you thought interpreting written sources was tricky, oral sources is that much harder.

The main problem with oral history is that we can't just go and ask people who are no longer alive. The advantage of written records is that they are still accessible to us after their author dies.

This, mainly, is why we rely on written rather than oral tradition. It is a bit more complicated than just Westerners disregarding oral traditions. It is an inherent problem with historical discovery itself.

I mean, believe me, most historians would love to have direct witness accounts of historical events, which is what people really mean when they say "oral tradition". But until we invent time travel, that is simply not an option beyond written records.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 17th 2020 at 5:49:05 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327536: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:49:11 PM

It's also a lot easier to have some idea of what was going on when and where when people wrote about it because it means there's also records of the losing side in a conflict. Some large-scale historical events that happened by historical standards quite recently even in areas of the world right next to where all the writing is taking place are a complete pain to try and discern due to the lack of written records from the people involved.

Working out what the hell started the migration period, for instance. Like a lot of ideas hinge on how the Huns and the Xiongnu might be related groups, if at all, or how China's actions against said group might have cascaded into the collapse of the Western Roman Empire and... well, all the migrations.

And that's all stuff that we have recorded! The early history of Japan is another one, because that's about the same time and it was right there but the writing wasn't.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 17th 2020 at 4:51:18 PM

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#327537: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:51:17 PM

Politico: U.S. judge blocks Postal Service changes that slowed mail

A U.S. judge on Thursday blocked controversial Postal Service changes that have slowed mail nationwide, calling them "a politically motivated attack on the efficiency of the Postal Service" before the November election.

Judge Stanley Bastian in Yakima, Washington [for the Eastern Washington US District Court], said he was issuing a nationwide preliminary injunction sought by 14 states that sued the Trump administration and the U.S. Postal Service.

The states challenged the Postal Service's so-called "leave behind" policy, where trucks have been leaving postal facilities on time regardless of whether there is more mail to load. They also sought to force the Postal Service to treat election mail as First Class mail.


Bastian said he planned to issue a written order later in the day, but that it would be substantially the same as that sought by the states.

Finally some good news.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#327538: Sep 17th 2020 at 8:58:07 PM

The thing is, historiography is based on flawed sources all the time until a better option comes along. Throwing them out of the window when they're the only sources on a given people is silly. If historians do not have access to any written down version of said oral histories (which isn't even true for many cases, mind you) then that's what the field is for: go interview the elders of whichever people you're talking about, as oral histories tend to be passed down through generations, then write those down. True, that obviously will have accuracy problems but it is what it is. It's a challenge of the field to be tackled rather than cast aside and go "you know what, let's just use sources written down by white people".

It isn't even a particularly consistent criteria if you think about it. The history of the many Germanic tribes were oral histories written down several sources (namely Catholic monks) eons after said events happened, but we use them (with the addendum of varying versions and general difficulty) because that's the best we got alongside archaeology efforts.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327539: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:03:19 PM

I thought the histories of most German tribes was actually based on contemporary sources from trading and what people described because that was written down at the time and we can have some idea where they might have been, or what those names are cognate to? Like a lot of the earliest mentions of specific Germanic peoples come from primary Roman sources for a reason.

megarockman from The Sixth Borough (Experienced Trainee)
#327540: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:05:53 PM

Could this be moved to another thread? It's pretty off-topic now, fascinating as it for me watching from the sidelines. EDIT: I realized after that could have been read as sarcastic — it's not, I'm actually curious as to where it might go.

Edited by megarockman on Sep 17th 2020 at 12:06:42 PM

The damned queen and the relentless knight.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327541: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:06:18 PM

I think another problem is that oral tradition quickly tends to overlap with literary tradition. These often aren't simply historical accounts, they become stories, with a narrative, and often with a political bent. They are problematic to use as historical source for the same reasons that the Bible is a problematic historical source.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#327542: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:29:27 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2020/09/17/day-1337/

Day 1337: "A steady drumbeat of misinformation."

    😷 Dept. of “We Have It Totally Under Control.” 
Global: Total confirmed cases: ~29,995,000; deaths: ~943,000

U.S.: Total confirmed cases: ~6,665,000; deaths: ~198,000

Source: Johns Hopkins University

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

💻 COVID-19 Live Blogs: New York Times / Washington Post / CNBC / CNN / The Guardian

🗳 How To Vote In The 2020 Election In Every State. Everything you need to know about mail-in and early in-person voting in every state in the age of COVID-19, including the first day you can cast your ballot in the 2020 election. (FiveThirtyEight / Washington Post / NBC News / Wall Street Journal

    Main Stories 
1/ Another 860,000 people applied for unemployment insurance last week – the 26th-straight week that unemployment claims have remained above the 1960s pre-pandemic record. The total number of people claiming unemployment insurance went up by about 100,000 to 29.7 million as of Aug. 29. (Washington Post / New York Times / Bloomberg / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/09/17/new-unemployment-claims-september/

2/ Attorney General William Barr criticized his own Justice Department, equating them to preschoolers and “headhunters.” Barr insisted that he has the ultimate authority to intervene in investigations and to overrule career lawyers as he sees fit. “What exactly am I interfering with?” he asked at an event hosted by Hillsdale College. “Under the law, all prosecutorial power is invested in the attorney general.” In February, Barr overrode a sentencing recommendation for Roger Stone, and in May he directed federal prosecutors to withdraw the government’s case against Michael Flynn, who twice pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI. (NBC News / Washington Post / New York Times / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/barr-blasts-his-own-justice-department-prosecutors-accuses-them-being-n1240279

3/ Shortly before federal police officers cleared Lafayette Square with smoke and tear gas on June 1, federal and military officials stockpiled ammunition and tried to obtain a sound cannon and “heat ray” that could be deployed against demonstrators. Active Denial System technology was developed to disperse crowds in the early 2000s, but shelved over concerns, in part, of the safety and ethics of using it on human beings. D.C. National Guard Maj. Adam DeMarco told lawmakers that military officials were searching for crowd control technology deemed too unpredictable to use in war zones. DeMarco’s account also contradicts the administration’s claims that protesters were violent, that tear gas was never used, and that demonstrators were warned multiple times to disperse. DeMarco did, however, authorize the transfer of about 7,000 rounds of ammunition to the D.C. Armory. (NPR / Washington Post / NBC News)

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/16/913748800/military-police-leaders-weighed-deploying-heat-ray-against-d-c-protesters

📌 Day 1230: As he spoke from the Rose Garden, police cleared peaceful protesters outside the White House with tear gas and flash grenades so Trump could pose by a church for photographs to dispel the notion that he was “weak” for hiding in a bunker over the weekend. Following his remarks in the Rose Garden, Trump left the White House and walked through Lafayette Square, where riot police and military police had cleared protesters moments before. Once Trump reached the far side of the square, he raised a bible in front of the church for a photo. Trump’s decision to speak to the nation from the Rose Garden and to then visit the church came together because he was reportedly upset about the news coverage of him retreating to the White House bunker amid the protests. Just before Trump spoke, Attorney General William Barr personally ordered law enforcement officials to clear protesters from Lafayette Square. (New York Times / CNN / ABC News / Vox / Washington Post / YouTube / Religious News Service)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/01/politics/cnntv-bishop-trump-photo-op/index.html

4/ Trump blamed nationwide protests against police brutality on schools teaching students about the impact of slavery and racism on American history, calling it “toxic propaganda” and “left-wing indoctrination.” Trump – again – denounced the “1619 Project,” a Pulitzer Prize-winning public school curriculum developed by the New York Times that aims to reframe American history from when the first slave ship arrived, equating the curriculum as “radical” “toxic” “child abuse” that threatens “to impose a new segregation.” Earlier this month, Trump tweeted that the Department of Education would cut off federal funding to schools that adopted the 1619 curriculum. Trump also announced he would create a “1776 Commission” to promote a “pro-American curriculum that celebrates the truth about our nation’s great history,” which he said would encourage educators to teach students about the “miracle of American history.” (Bloomberg / Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/trump-history-education/2020/09/17/f40535ec-ee2c-11ea-ab4e-581edb849379_story.html?hpid=hp_no-name_6p-0917-trumpschools%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans&itid=hp_no-name_6p-0917-trumpschools%3Ahomepage%2Fstory-ans

5/ Attorney General William Barr argued that coronavirus-related lockdowns were the “greatest intrusion on civil liberties” in history “other than slavery,” which he characterized as a “different kind of restraint.” When asked to explain the “constitutional hurdles” involved in preventing churches from meeting during the pandemic, Barr called stay at home orders a form of “house arrest” before comparing it to slavery. Barr went on to accuse governors of “treat[ing] free citizens as babies” by using their executive powers to prevent people from going back to work, and suggested that the federal response to the pandemic should be guided by politicians and elected officials rather than “the person in the white coat.” (CNN / Politico)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/16/politics/barr-justice-department-speech/index.html

6/ FBI Director Christopher Wray warned that “Russia continues to try to influence our elections” and is seeking to “primarily to denigrate” Biden’s campaign. Wray said Russia has not successfully hacked any election systems and that activity has been limited to social media misinformation and influence operations. Wray added that his biggest concern is the “steady drumbeat of misinformation” that could undermine confidence in the result of the 2020 election. Meanwhile, the Trump administration’s top intelligence official will brief congressional intelligence committees on threats to the November election. Last month, Director of National Intelligence John Ratcliffe said he would no longer give Congress in-person briefings about election security, citing concern over “unauthorized disclosures of sensitive information.” (Bloomberg / Washington Post / New York Times / The Guardian / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/wray-fbi-election-security-threats-hearing/2020/09/16/4461526e-f869-11ea-a275-1a2c2d36e1f1_story.html

7/ A federal judge temporarily blocked U.S. Postal Service operational changes that have slowed mail delivery, saying that Trump and Postmaster General Louis DeJoy are “involved in a politically motivated attack on the efficiency of the Postal Service” that could disrupt the 2020 election. Judge Stanley Bastian granted a nationwide preliminary injunction sought by 14 states, saying mail delivery backlogs “likely will slow down delivery of ballots, both to the voters and back to the states” this fall. The states sued the Trump administration and the U.S. Postal Service, challenging the so-called “leave behind” policy, where trucks leave the facility on time, whether or not there is more mail to load. (Politico / Washington Post)

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/17/us-judge-blocks-postal-service-changes-that-slowed-mail-417276

[April] U.S. Postal Service leaders planed to distribute 650 million masks nationwide before the White House nixed the plan. The Department of Health and Human Services had suggested that a pack of five reusable masks be sent to every residential address in the country. The draft news release was never sent and instead HHS created Project America Strong, a $675 million effort to distribute “reusable cotton face masks to critical infrastructure sectors, companies, healthcare facilities, and faith-based and community organizations across the country.” (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/us-policy/2020/09/17/usps-trump-coronavirus-amazon-foia/

The White House offered to provide the Big Ten with enough COVID-19 tests for resume football. The Big Ten instead sourced the tests from a private company. (ABC News)

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/white-house-offered-tests-big-ten-resume-football/story?id=73062256

8/ Trump continued his lies about mail-in voting, tweeting that the results “may NEVER BE ACCURATELY DETERMINED” because “big unsolicited ballot states” automatically send ballots to registered voters. There is no evidence that states that send mail-in ballots to registered voter have had issues with accuracy, and voter fraud, broadly speaking, has proved exceedingly rare. Twitter, meanwhile, labeled Trump’s tweet indicating that it included potentially misleading information regarding the process of mail-in voting. (New York Times / Associated Press / Reuters)

https://apnews.com/8c5db90960815f91f39fe115579570b4

9/ Another woman accused Trump of sexual assault while at the U.S. Open tennis tournament in New York in 1997. Former model Amy Dorris alleged that Trump “shoved his tongue down my throat” and that “his grip became tighter and his hands were very gropey and all over my butt, my breasts, my back, everything.” Dorris provided evidence to support her account of her encounters with Trump, including her ticket to the U.S. Open and six photos showing her with Trump over several days in New York. Several people also corroborated her account. Dorris was 24 at the time, while Trump was 51 and married to his second wife, Marla Maples. Trump’s attorneys say Trump denies having ever harassed, abused or behaved improperly toward Dorris. (The Guardian / The Independent / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/ex-model-amy-dorris-alleges-trump-sexually-assaulted-her-1997-n1240291

10/ Trump’s businesses have charged the Secret Service more than $1.1 million in private transactions since he took office, including rentals at the Bedminster, N.J., club that was closed due to the coronavirus pandemic. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/secret-service-spending-bedminster/2020/09/17/9e11e1c2-f6a0-11ea-be57-d00bb9bc632d_story.html


This next bit is off-topic, but does have some relation to this thread in particular so I thought it'd be a bit of fun sharing. Still, I'll folderize it so anyone who doesn't want to read can safely skip it.

    Off-Topic-ness 
A new podcast that started up recently that details con-artists and scammers, Fraudsters, started a series this week on Jacob Wohl. The name sounded familiar but I couldn't place why. Then I started listening to the episode and realized where I'd heard of Jacob Wohl before: here.

Some posts from last year I found via search.

I only just started listening to the episode but, while they mentioned some of Wohl's antics in the political arena, this first episode is mostly dedicated to his financial fraud. Like I said, it's not on-topic to the thread, but I thought it was neat that I actually knew the name and, because it was from here that I knew it, thought I'd share.

Their first few episodes were a 3-parter on fake phone psychic Miss Cleo.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 17th 2020 at 9:31:07 AM

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#327543: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:33:23 PM

Then you note that inherent unreliability in a preface and use it anyway. Literally everything is unreliable or biased to some degree, it's just a matter of taking that into account and making it clear what level of uncertainty you're talking about.

Frankly talking about any history as if it were 100% factual seems like a much more dangerous proposition. Even your own personal memory of your own life is unreliable and biased.

Edited by Clarste on Sep 17th 2020 at 9:34:59 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327544: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:42:11 PM

I wonder if we're maybe being vague about what sort of level of oral history we're talking about? Because primarily I've been thinking of things that happened in the (respective) distant past, compared to something of a similar time period reporting on the same thing for whatever reason; which, whilst it's inevitably biased, doesn't add on centuries of accumulated error on top of initial bias. And you can't get oral history out of a dead people.

Actually, do we have a general history thread? One that's broad enough to contain both history and interrelated stuff like linguistics?

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327545: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:43:42 PM

I think we do, yes. Or we can just make one.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#327546: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:44:59 PM

Even if it's just people telling stories about their ancestors, it's still better than literally nothing.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#327547: Sep 17th 2020 at 9:51:21 PM

As far as I can tell, no general history thread, but there is one about Aboriginal Americans: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=15221734690A81186400&page=1

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#327549: Sep 17th 2020 at 10:07:49 PM

Hm. Might need to make a new one here then, for the sake of things like the start of this discussion (i.e. the political dimension of historical teaching and historical revisionism for various reasons).

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#327550: Sep 17th 2020 at 11:44:56 PM

We have an education thread, which should service for talking about history education.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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