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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#327126: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:24:50 PM

Sorry, was meant to add my own comments at the bottom of the link that, "Yeah, I was hoping this didn't need multiple confirmation but...no denying it."

I think we can officially get rid of the "few bad apples" defense. ICE is beyond salvation and every member needs to be put on trial.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#327127: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:25:37 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2020/09/14/day-1334/

Day 1334: "Reckless and selfish."

    😷 Dept. of “We Have It Totally Under Control.” 
Global: Total confirmed cases: ~29,137,000; deaths: ~926,000

U.S.: Total confirmed cases: ~6,546,000; deaths: ~195,000

Source: Johns Hopkins University

💻 COVID-19 Live Blogs: New York Times / Washington Post / CNBC / CNN

🗳 How To Vote In The 2020 Election In Every State. Everything you need to know about mail-in and early in-person voting in every state in the age of COVID-19, including the first day you can cast your ballot in the 2020 election. (FiveThirtyEight / Washington Post / NBC News / Wall Street Journal)

    Main Stories 
1/ Political appointees at the Department of Health and Human Services repeatedly demanded that the CDC revise or delay weekly scientific reports on the coronavirus pandemic that they believed were unflattering to Trump. Officials characterized the effort by Michael Caputo and Paul Alexander as an attempt to intimidate the authors and water down the reports, which are written to update scientists and public health experts on trends in infectious diseases, including the coronavirus. In one email to CDC Director Robert Redfield and other senior officials, Alexander accused CDC scientists of trying to “hurt the president” with the reports, which he referred to as “hit pieces on the administration” because they didn’t align with Trump’s optimistic message about the outbreak. (Politico / New York Times)

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/11/exclusive-trump-officials-interfered-with-cdc-reports-on-covid-19-412809

📌 Day 1329: A top aide at the Department of Health and Human Services is trying to prevent Dr. Anthony Fauci from speaking about the risks that coronavirus poses to children. Emails show Paul Alexander — a senior adviser to Michael Caputo, HHS’s assistant secretary for public affairs — attempting to dictate what the government’s top infectious disease expert should say during media interviews as recently as this week. Alexander specifically told Fauci’s press team that he should not promote mask-wearing by children. Fauci, however, said he had not seen the emails and that his staff had not instructed him to minimize the risk coronavirus poses to children or the need for kids to wear masks, saying “No one tells me what I can say and cannot say. I speak on scientific evidence.” (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/09/emails-show-hhs-muzzle-fauci-410861

House Democrats launched an investigation into how Trump appointees have pressured the CDC to change or delay scientific reports on coronavirus. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/14/democrats-investigate-trump-cdc-414272

[August] Trump demanded that the National Institutes of Health authorize the emergency use of plasma from recovered coronavirus patients to treat new ones. At the time, NIH had lingering concerns over its effectiveness. Four days later, however, the FDA approved plasma therapy. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/12/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-treatment-vaccine.html

2/ The top communications official at the Department of Health and Human Services baselessly accused career government scientists of forming a “resistance unit” for “sedition” against Trump. In a Facebook livestream, Michael Caputo claimed that “There are scientists who work for this government who do not want America to get well, not until after Joe Biden is president.” Caputo also encouraged his followers to buy ammunition, predicting that Trump would win the 2020 election and that Biden would refuse to concede. “And when Donald Trump refuses to stand down at the inauguration, the shooting will begin,” he said. “The drills that you’ve seen are nothing. If you carry guns, buy ammunition, ladies and gentlemen, because it’s going to be hard to get.” The assistant secretary of public affairs at HHS also complained during the livestream that his “mental health has definitely failed.” Caputo later deleted his Twitter account after he suggested tear-gassing reporters. (New York Times / Axios / Bloomberg / The Hill / Talking Points Memo)

https://www.axios.com/michael-caputo-hhs-cdc-sedition-62eeda84-9e49-49a2-a1bd-1a1acc654bbb.html

3/ In August, Trump told Bob Woodward “nothing more could have been done” about the coronavirus as the U.S. death toll from COVID-19 was surging. Woodward said Trump “possessed the specific knowledge that could have saved lives” in January, and that he was present “before the virus was on anyone’s radar” when National Security Advisor Robert O’Brien told Trump on Jan. 28, that “This virus will be the biggest national security threat you face in your presidency.” Trump, however, declined to share that information during his State of the Union address on Feb. 4, which 40 million people watched. Trump also privately told Woodward in February that he knew how deadly the virus was and in March he admitted that he was intentionally playing it down. (CBS News / CNN / NBC News / Axios)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/14/politics/trump-bob-woodward-final-phone-call/index.html

📚 The WTF Just Happened Today? Book List

4/ Trump held an indoor campaign rally in Nevada, in defiance of state regulations and his own administration’s pandemic health guidelines. Nevada Governor Steve Sisolak accused Trump of “reckless and selfish actions” and called the rally “an insult to every Nevadan who has followed the directives, made sacrifices, and put their neighbors before themselves.” During the event, Trump told the crowd that the U.S. was “making the last turn” when it comes to defeating the coronavirus. While masks were encouraged at the event, few people wore them. Later, Trump said he was not afraid of catching the coronavirus at his rallies, because “I’m on stage and it’s very far away.” (Associated Press / New York Times / NBC News / Wall Street Journal / CNN)

https://apnews.com/5d306f8176972692ce700b569b01cd73

Coronavirus cases are increasing in 11 states by 5% or more, based on weekly averages. Alaska, Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Maine, Nebraska, New Hampshire, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Wisconsin, and Wyoming are all seeing rising case counts. While cases in those 11 states are increasing, the overall daily average of new cases in the U.S. is declining. Over the past seven days, the country has reported an average of about 34,300 new cases per day, down more than 15% compared to a week ago. (CNBC)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/13/coronavirus-cases-are-growing-in-11-us-states.html

Pence canceled plans to attend a fundraiser hosted by QAnon conspiracy theory supporters. Trump’s re-election campaign did not provide a reason or say whether the fundraiser might be held at a later time. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/pence-drops-plan-go-fundraiser-hosted-qanon-backers-n1239964

Trump’s ambassador to China will resign ahead of November’s presidential election. Pompeo announced on Twitter that Terry Branstad would be leaving the post after three years, but didn’t provide a reason for the departure. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/trump-s-ambassador-china-unexpectedly-retiring-election-amid-high-tensions-n1239999

Secretary of State Mike Pompeo relaunched his extravagant, taxpayer-funded “Madison Dinners” during the coronavirus pandemic. The dinners had been on pause since March because of the coronavirus, but they’re back, with a dinner scheduled for Monday and at least three others on the calendar in September and October. (NBC News / Kansas City Star)

https://www.kansascity.com/news/politics-government/article245708845.html

5/ A federal judge temporarily blocked the U.S. Postal Service from sending a notice about the November elections to Colorado residents because the mailer “provides patently false information” about the state’s election policies. U.S. District Judge William Martinez granted an emergency request from Colorado Secretary of State Jena Griswold to halt the mailings because the pre-election mailers incorrectly advise voters to request a ballot at least 15 days before Election Day and to return the official ballot at least seven days before. The state already automatically mails ballots to voters. The judge said he was “deeply troubled” by the “false or misleading information” in the notices. USPS, however, asked the judge to reconsider the ruling, claiming the notices were accurate because they direct voters to check state rules. (CNN / Washington Post / Denver Post / Bloomberg)

https://www.denverpost.com/2020/09/12/jena-griswold-usps-lawsuit-election-misinformation/

Louis DeJoy gave Trump’s campaign and the Republican National Committee more than $600,000 after the U.S. Postmaster General job became available. DeJoy now holds the position. (Bloomberg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-14/dejoy-gave-600-000-to-gop-after-postmaster-job-opened-up?sref=MIBMEEoj

Trump – again – suggested that North Carolinians illegally vote twice. Twitter labeled the tweet with a public interest notice because it violated the social media platform’s “Civic Integrity Policy.” (ABC News)

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/twitter-flags-trump-tweet/story?id=72970494

6/ Trump claimed – without evidence – that climate change has nothing to do with the wildfires in California, Oregon, and Washington. Trump also suggested that the record-breaking temperatures in California would cool down on their own after California’s secretary for natural resources urged him to not “put our head in the sand” and ignore climate change. Trump replied: “It’ll start getting cooler. You just watch.” Trump, with a laugh, added: “I don’t think science knows, actually.” Trump largely blamed the wildfires on poor forest management practices and claimed that an unnamed European leader told him his country has “‘trees that are far more explosive than they have in California, and we don’t have any problem.’” (CNN / CNBC / Bloomberg / New York Times)

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/09/14/trump-challenged-on-climate-change-during-wildfire-briefing.html

NOAA hired a longtime climate science denier as deputy assistant secretary of commerce for observation and prediction. David Legates will reports to Neil Jacobs, the acting head of the agency that is in charge of the federal government’s sprawling weather and climate prediction work. (NPR)

https://www.npr.org/2020/09/12/912301325/longtime-climate-science-denier-hired-at-noaa

7/ The Justice Department’s Office of the Inspector General is investigating the circumstances of Roger Stone’s sentencing recommendations. The investigation is focused on events in February, when Trump’s Justice Department overruled its own prosecutors and reduced Stone’s sentencing recommendation. All four prosecutors quit the case as a result. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/justice-department-internal-watchdog-investigating-roger-stone-s-sentencing-say-n1240033

8/ Trump claimed that he received “the highly honored Bay of Pigs award,” which doesn’t exist. The Bay of Pigs was a failed attempt by the CIA and Cuban exiles to instigate the overthrow of Fidel Castro. In a tweet attacking Biden, Trump said Biden “spent 47 years in politics being terrible to Hispanics” and is now “relying on Castro lover Bernie Sanders to help him out.” He added: “Remember, Miami Cubans gave me the highly honored Bay of Pigs Award for all I have done for our great Cuban Population!” Trump did receive an endorsement in 2016 from the Bay of Pigs Veterans Association, but that is not an award. (The Guardian / The Independent)

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/13/trump-bay-of-pigs-award-florida-cuba-biden

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 14th 2020 at 6:26:22 AM

astrokitty Happiness is a cup of tea from Somewhere Out There Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: Yes, I'm alone, but I'm alone and free
Happiness is a cup of tea
#327128: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:34:09 PM

My biggest worry is that even if Biden wins the election and is put in office, he won't actually do anything about ICE. Has he taken any particular stance on the issue?

Edited by astrokitty on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:34:21 AM

Somebody once told me the world was macaroni, I took a bite out of a tree
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#327129: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:39:21 PM

People have been very slow to call for the abolishing of ICE. Even here in this thread, lots of people went, "They do some good aside from deportations."

I confess, this surpasses even what I thought about the organization's capacity for evil.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#327130: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:41:16 PM

IIRC most of what we talk about with ICE's eviller actions are primarily committed by one specific sub-organization within them, so simply reforming the organization isn't too hard in theory.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#327131: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:42:37 PM

[up][up][up]My biggest worry is that Biden will lose the election. You really think he'd keep putting kids in cages and sterilizing them? If so, I'm worried about you.

At the very least the separations and imprisonments will stop. It will probably be very difficult to reunite all the kids with their families since ICE isn't keeping records. That could take Biden's entire first term to sort out. If people get prosecuted, I'll be pleased but that's not the first priority. The first priority is restoring families.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:43:09 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#327132: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:42:45 PM

Eh, forced sterilizations isn't too out of the realm of belief. Canada has a similar issue when it comes to indigenous populations.

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#327133: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:43:31 PM

[up]x3. The thing with ICE, is that it’s really 2 completely separate departments, that are unfortunately lumped under lumped together.

[down]. There was a problem with ERO (the department that does the deportations) existed way before Donald Trump. He just made them even more brazen.

Edited by megaeliz on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:46:28 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#327134: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:44:02 PM

The thing with ICE is that it is being run by Donald Trump.

Seriously, people. This conversation is beyond futile.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#327135: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:45:47 PM

Also, Biden's website does have something to say about ICE.

Ensure that Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) personnel abide by professional standards and are held accountable for inhumane treatment. Biden will increase resources for training and demand transparency in and independent oversight over ICE and CBP’s activities. Under a Biden Administration, there will be responsible, Senate-confirmed professionals leading these agencies, and they will answer directly to the president.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#327136: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:47:45 PM

You know, there isn't an issue letting people be upset or horrified about something and then not immediately focusing on on the election.

There isn't anything we can do immediately? So what!? That goes for dozens of the topics we discuss here, yet we discuss them all the same because these things still hurt people and get emotional responses even out of the bystanders.

[up] Better idea. Instead of trying to futile-y do the same thing but with a smiley face painted on, we actually break the source of the problem. Get rid of the institution.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:48:48 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#327137: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:49:27 PM

Yeah, let out your stress, and focus it on the important things. Nothing that our government is doing can be fixed while Trump is in charge of it.

Edit: And then focus on realistic solutions. The entire Trump administration is probably not getting prosecuted. ICE is probably not getting abolished. Sorry.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:50:09 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#327138: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:50:49 PM

[up][up]That was in response to astrokitty insinuating that Biden is taking no stance on ICE at all or won't do anything.

Biden's approach is probably as good as we're going to get when it comes to ICE reform in the near future.

Edited by M84 on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:51:23 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#327139: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:52:09 PM

Forced sterilizations were not uncommon in the South back when eugenics was the rage. There have been many horror stories of black women who were victims of rape then becoming sterilized, because the government saw their rapes as evidence of their promiscuity and genetic inferiority.

[up] I saw Astrokitty's post as a comment on the fear that Biden wouldn't do any thing meaningful more than that he wouldn't take a stand at all. Frankly his entry on his campaign page, while it's good to have to demonstrate that he's not completely ignoring it, doesn't quite assuage that fear. It's a perfectly valid one to have IMO.

My hope is that the new revelations will be a Godzilla Threshold of sorts for the Democrats and that it will persuade Biden and the centrist wing to shift leftward in response to the voting base's revulsion, similar to their leftward shifts on things like Medicare and the environment.

[down] We don't need to be passive-aggressive to make our points, just as we don't have to assume any of the outrage automatically translates to unfairness towards Biden or will interfere in helping him win the race.

[down][down][down] That's what I think as well. I'd prefer it to have been more radical from the start, something in the ballpark of Warren's more drastic overhaul would've been a fine compromise between abolition and reform already. Criticize it for that. But I don't think it's necessarily locked in stone or fair to call him out on a lack of immediate response to every single piece of horrible new information that comes out.

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 14th 2020 at 10:01:03 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#327140: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:53:13 PM

[up][up] Cool. Instead, his stance is apparently cravenly trying to change the margins without actually putting a stop to the actual problem. What a hero.

[up][up][up] Whether they will is a different question than if they deserve it.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#327141: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:53:33 PM

[up][up]Yeah, there is unfortunately precedent for doing that in the USA.

Edited by M84 on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:53:43 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#327142: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:53:43 PM

[up][up] These events could well change things, since I'm assuming that what we're seeing from his site predates these reports.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 14th 2020 at 6:54:13 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#327143: Sep 14th 2020 at 6:57:27 PM

[up]x4 The Marshall Project has an article on Biden's shift leftwards on immigration from this July.

Biden Inches Leftward On Immigration

Even as President Trump continues to make restricting immigration a centerpiece of his re-election campaign, his opponent, Joe Biden, is committing more deeply to an ambitious program that would unwind most of Trump’s policies and revamp the immigration system.

A task force assigned to find common ground on immigration between Biden and Sen. Bernie Sanders, I-Vt., broadly endorsed Biden’s plans to offer citizenship to undocumented immigrants, including those who came here as children. The task force proposals stopped short of calling explicitly for de-funding or abolishing the Immigration and Customs Enforcement agency, known as ICE. And they provided more detail and urgency to Biden’s plans to roll back Trump’s near-shutdown of the border with Mexico and reverse his dismantling of the asylum system. Citing the coronavirus pandemic, the task force urged Biden to significantly expand access to health care for all immigrants, regardless of their legal status.

The group also forcefully supported ending private companies’ involvement in immigration detention.

The task force was spurred by political reality. Latinx voters, who are most likely to cite immigration as a top issue, turned out in big numbers for Sanders in California, Colorado and Nevada, three states he won in the primary. If their participation is low in November, it could hurt Biden in several battleground states, particularly Arizona.

Immigrant advocates have been frustrated that Biden was slow to acknowledge the cloud over his campaign from President Barack Obama’s immigration record, which included more than 3 million deportations.

The recommendations announced Wednesday by the eight-member Unity Task Force move Biden away from a strategy of promoting sweeping legislation, known as comprehensive immigration reform, which combined a pathway to citizenship for more than 10 million undocumented immigrants with big increases in funding for border enforcement. That strategy, designed to attract Republican votes, repeatedly failed to bring enough of those votes to pass Congress.

The task force strongly endorsed Biden’s plan to pass a “roadmap to citizenship” for undocumented immigrants and a separate bill with a fast-track to citizenship for immigrants who came here as children. But there is no mention of border funding as part of those packages.

The proposals shied away from a key demand of many Sanders supporters: abolishing or de-funding ICE. These demands intensified after Trump’s family separations at the border in 2018 and in recent street protests against police brutality.

Edited by M84 on Sep 14th 2020 at 9:58:33 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#327144: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:03:23 PM

Edit: And then focus on realistic solutions. The entire Trump administration is probably not getting prosecuted. ICE is probably not getting abolished. Sorry.

So what crimes would they have to be guilty of in order to be abolished? Because we're already at rape, kidnapping, imprisonment, and sterialization. At what point can we get rid of the evil?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#327145: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:14:50 PM

Honestly, I find comments like "we already know and we can't do anything about it, so don't bother mentioning it" a little disingenuous. If we are going by those criteria, we might as well close the thread, because we talk about loads of things that fall under one or the other argument.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#327146: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:17:08 PM

It should be worth noting that Biden could really use a much more dramatic leftward shift on immigration if he wants to boost his chances of winning, and this ICE expose could be the catalyst for that. A few days ago an a Sanders campaign staffer posted an article on how Biden is still underperforming with the Latin demographic and needs to take stronger action on that front. Taking a much more radical stance on ICE would be one such thing.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#327147: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:18:38 PM

[up][up][up] Because it is not politically realistic for it to happen. Obama didn't prosecute Bush's cronies, and they killed way more people than ICE. I'm not saying don't advocate for justice; I'm saying don't act as if it's the natural and obvious course and anything less is unacceptable. You'll be disappointed.

Heck, even Sanders probably couldn't have done it. The President does not command prosecutions; the Justice Department does. Unless we want to become as bad as Trump and appoint political cronies who will start directing political prosecutions...

If we want to be a society of laws we have to respect the laws and the system of due process even when they are inconvenient.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 14th 2020 at 10:19:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#327148: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:20:15 PM

Somehow, I think appointing allies to enrich oneself and promote white nationalism and appointing allies to prosecute the above are not morally equivalent.

And its not impossible. DHS and ICE are younger than just about everyone here. The agencies would be barely old enough to vote.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Sep 14th 2020 at 10:22:18 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#327149: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:26:36 PM

I don't think Alley Oop or Azure have been wide eyed idealists talking against Biden or somesuch. The general mood in the thread from my end has been outrage but also pondering about what could be realistically done. Alley Oop in particular has just pointed out how taking a firmer stance on ICE can actively benefit Biden's campaign.

I more than understand the dread of Biden not winning but we also have to be careful not to unceremoniously shoot down people's concerns over what appears to be an act of demographic genocide occurring on U.S soil. The choices aren't "back up Biden quietly" or "hand over the election to Trump with outrage". I for one think it's more than possible to use this incident to push Biden leftwards to Warren's overhaul policies (for example) without causing the downfall of western civilization.

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#327150: Sep 14th 2020 at 7:27:11 PM

If we want to be a society of laws we have to respect the laws and the system of due process even when they are inconvenient.

They are committing crimes against humanity, let alone the US government. It's just they have the protection of the President. As for the government organizations, nothing enshrines them as organizations that should exist. Trump has utterly defanged and warped agencies with actual importance. They can be dissolved, replaced, or broken apart at will because they have no value except what we ascribe them to.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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