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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326626: Sep 9th 2020 at 5:50:57 AM

Yeah, planning, organization and infrastructure around voting is a state/local thing in the US, not centralized nationally, so there are a lot of different systems in place. Some of them work better than others.

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#326627: Sep 9th 2020 at 6:03:36 AM

Silasw is in the UK if I'm not mistaken. So even if the organization of US elections was more centralized (and I think it would be a good thing if it was, even if only for federal elections), I'd still expect a different organization.

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#326628: Sep 9th 2020 at 6:04:38 AM

[up][up] And heck, technically speaking the US doesn't even have true national elections. When a person votes for President they are technically voting for state electors who in turn actually elect the next president about a month later.

That's why, in theory, it's possible for someone who wasn't even on the ballot to get elected president. Loads of electors would get criminally prosecuted for voting for someone other than who they were pledged to vote for, but their votes would still stand.

Edited by Falrinn on Sep 9th 2020 at 6:04:48 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#326629: Sep 9th 2020 at 6:06:02 AM

The electors voting for Trump was where the system failed as in no way were they doing their duties to cast their vote for such an unfit man.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#326630: Sep 9th 2020 at 6:15:12 AM

I'm not surprised that a 1000 people tried to vote twice, apparently right wing characters have been encouraging Trump voters to do so, if only as a way to "subvert" voter fraud because those evil Democrats would be trying to steal their vote. (Edit: it was Trump himself, of course...)

The alt-right is actively egging people on to commit voter fraud, so don't be surprised to hear more stories like that.

If the claim seems extraordinary, it is because we live in extraordinary times. No one would have believed you 10 years ago if you told them German neo-Nazis would be holding up the US president as the second coming of Hitler, but here we are.

Edited by Redmess on Sep 9th 2020 at 3:23:45 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#326631: Sep 9th 2020 at 6:27:54 AM

Edit: [up] It's not yet certain that 1000 people voted twice, and even if they did, I highly doubt Brad Raffensperger will see it your way.

Especially considering this: ACLU Georgia released a report saying that over 200k voters were wrongfully purged from voter rolls in 2019. (CNN)


Here's an analysis from Pew Research Center about how Democrats won in the 2018 elections: Democrats Made Gains From Multiple Sources in 2018 Midterm Victories The piece is long but worth reading in its entirety; lots of very interesting data on demographics and coalitions.

Compared with Hillary Clinton's 2-point popular vote advantage over Donald Trump in the 2016 presidential election, the Democratic Party expanded its margin over the Republican Party to 9 points in votes cast for the U.S. House of Representatives in 2018, a gain of 7 percentage points.


Compared with how Clinton fared in 2016, Democratic candidates for Congress in 2018 made gains from several sources. Among Americans who voted in both elections, Clinton's 2016 voters supported Democrats in 2018 at a slightly higher rate than Trump's voters supported Republican candidates. Slightly more of Clinton's than Trump's voters turned out to vote in 2018. In combination, party loyalty, defection and turnout differences among 2016 voters accounted for a little less than half of the Democratic gains over Clinton's two-point margin.

Nonvoters in 2016 who turned out in 2018 voted heavily for Democratic candidates, accounting for about half of the Democratic gains. Additionally, a small share of the gains came from people who voted for third-party candidates in 2016; they favored Democratic candidates over Republican candidates in 2018 by a narrow margin.

Voting patterns in 2018 reflected a great deal of continuity with 2016, though Democratic candidates in 2018 did better among a few groups, notably men, young people and secular voters. Voting patterns among several other large groups changed less, including Black voters, voters ages 65 and older, Protestants, regular churchgoers and women.

The point - "the 2018 Democratic advantage came from: 2016 nonvoters, higher turnout by Clinton voters, and vote switching".

Edited by nova92 on Sep 9th 2020 at 6:35:46 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#326632: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:24:35 AM

The electors voting for Trump was where the system failed as in no way were they doing their duties to cast their vote for such an unfit man.

That duty is a design flaw, really. Any system that expects electors hand-picked by Republicans to cast their votes against the Republican candidate is overly optimistic at best. The idea of faithless electors as a final bulwark shielding democracy from bad candidates is too idealistic to actually work, because it assumes that electors will be fair and impartial beings of pure reason and logic who cast their votes without political bias.

Republican electors are always gonna elect Republicans and Democratic electors are always gonna elect Democrats for reasons that should be fairly obvious. Regardless of credentials, if a candidate has convinced a majority of Republicans to vote for him, then there is no reason to expect that Republican electors will somehow be above his nonsense.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 9th 2020 at 7:26:22 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#326633: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:31:57 AM

To my understanding, one of the big things the US system overlooked was political parties. They were expecting there to be power struggles between the three branches of government, rather than between organizations that had a little bit of power in all three.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326634: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:33:08 AM

[up][up]Indeed, the reasons typically put forward for the Electoral college's existence are ultimately baseless if examined critically. It's categorically inferior to a popular vote system and I look forward to the day that it's defacto consigned to the ash heap of history.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 9th 2020 at 7:33:22 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#326635: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:35:25 AM

A reminder that Virginia, Nevada and Maine are all Democratic trifecta states that haven't passed the NPVIC yet, and Colorado has a referendum on whether to keep it this November.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326636: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:36:20 AM

[up][up]That would be nice.

Anyone have thoughts on whether/how soon the National Popular Vote Compact might be able to go into effect? That would de facto solve the problem even if the EC still exists de jure.

[up] Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Thanks for the info on the current hurdles and possible progress...

Edited by PointMaid on Sep 9th 2020 at 10:37:21 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#326637: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:37:11 AM

Ranked choice ballots in a popular vote system. It's the right way to democracy.

It's a shame we have to fight tooth and nail to actually turn this country into a democracy before we can get there. The biggest hurdle we still need to overcome is ultimately that the people who wrote our Constitution weren't actually trying to make a fully democratic nation. They just didn't want a total monarchy. They weren't willing to commit to One Citizen = One Vote because they were a bunch of wealthy tax-dodgers of the same ilk we're fighting against today.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 9th 2020 at 7:39:23 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#326638: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:38:22 AM

It's gonna take some heavy lifting. Remember that we're going to need to take some red and purple ground to get it through, and a lot of swing states won't countenance it because they like being the center of attention.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326639: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:39:01 AM

I believe MA has ranked choice on the ballot questions this fall. smile

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#326640: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:40:48 AM

[up][up] Yeah, Nevada Gov. Sisolak vetoed for that very reason.

If Virginia, Maine and Nevada pass the NPVIC, and Minnesota gets a D trifecta and passes it as well, that's 229 electoral votes, still 41 short of 270.

As for RCV, I think Maine's the only state that's passed it so far on the Congressional/Presidential/Statewide level.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 9th 2020 at 7:44:45 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326641: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:43:26 AM

Of course, ranked choice voting only addresses the issue of more people getting a candidate they voted for, it doesn't actually improve representation. You want some form of multi-member constituencies on a lower level for representation to be in any way proportional.

nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#326642: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:44:25 AM

[up] IIRC West Virginia has that for its state legislature, but most other states have single-member districts.

Edit: Wait, forgot that there were a few other states that have single-member state senate districts and 2-member state house districts. West Virginia is different because its districts can have 1, 2 or 3 representatives, probably based on population.


Edit 2: Sorry to keep on changing my post, but I think the most likely path for NPVIC is

  • The current 196 EC votes (WA, OR, CA, NJ, DE, VT, CO, NM, HI, DC, MD, MA, NY, CT, RI)
  • The 3 Democratic trifecta states with their 23 EC votes (VA, NV, ME)
  • Flipping 4 state legislatures (and a governorship) for 52 EC votes (Minnesota, Michigan, Arizona, and North Carolina)

Which gets 271 votes for the narrowest possible margin to enact the compact.

Edited by nova92 on Sep 9th 2020 at 7:51:28 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326643: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:47:32 AM

Three is the absolute minimum size you want for a district, and five to ten is probably better.

Ranked choice voting where there can be only one winner, STV otherwise.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326644: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:53:13 AM

Heh, that does sound like a plan for cutting down the effectiveness of gerrymandering, for one. And increasing the power of minority constituencies which otherwise would get drowned out.

Khudzlin Since: Nov, 2013
#326645: Sep 9th 2020 at 7:53:45 AM

@Falrinn Even if the election is indirect, the office of President is still federal, just like that of US Representative or US Senator (there might other elected federal offices that I don't know about). To me, that makes it a federal matter.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326646: Sep 9th 2020 at 8:11:29 AM

[up][up] That... is kind of the point? It's the most reasonable way to achieve various electoral goals:

  1. Eliminate strategic voting—everyone can vote for who they want†. This actually gives minor parties a chance of getting somewhere.
  2. Remove the incentive and benefits of most form of gerrymandering—minority voters will still be represented without packed districts and carefully arranging districts to maximise small leads in all won't give a vote.
  3. Provide representation more proportional to the actual support of various parties
  4. Try to give every citizen an elected official that they support so that they do have representation
  5. Retain local representation (you only want e.g. 3-person constituencies when they're too geographically enormous for it to make sense)

There's probably a few more I'm missing but that's the general point.

† There is an exception in the form of if your second choice etc. goes to people already eliminated then said choice doesn't factor in, but it then goes to the next and so on as long as you have more.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#326648: Sep 9th 2020 at 8:26:19 AM

The "dramatic surprise twist " is a hallmark of reality game shows.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#326649: Sep 9th 2020 at 8:31:34 AM

Meanwhile, on the other coast...

Tens Of Thousands Of People Ordered To Evacuate Medford OR. It seems like nearly the entire West Coast is ablaze.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#326650: Sep 9th 2020 at 8:45:48 AM

.

Edited by nova92 on Apr 7th 2021 at 8:40:36 AM


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