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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326301: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:43:46 AM

It is at least possible to dismiss points of view that are explicitly counterfactual.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326302: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:48:55 AM

[up]Sure, but just because it's counterfactual does not mean that it is not still in some people's interest (even material interest) to hold on to and/or keep perpetuating those beliefs.

That's why politics is all about power, regardless of if one side is upholding the "facts" or not.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326303: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:56:34 AM

I trust the sources of information I go to because they align with my values and I think my values are factual sound and morally correct. Human beings are not robots who rely on solely facts to make decisions, they are driven by emotions, which are not logical all the time. Some experts can dismiss structural racism, but the black community can feel its oppression.

Yes I am going to favor sources of information that conform to my values, but frankly most people will do that.

Ben Shapiro's facts over feelings slogan is non sense, because he ignores all the times he put his feelings above facts.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 9:04:01 AM

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326304: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:23:36 AM

Hypocrisy is not always a reason to dismiss a position. A position can be something to strive for, not something that is always followed or even possible to always follow. (This is true in a way for worldview, too — it is not generally possible to have or know one has the correct worldview, but one can always strive for a more correct worldview and to collect more knowledge and facts and experience that would tell you if you are wrong.)

Edited by PointMaid on Sep 5th 2020 at 12:24:59 PM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#326305: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:25:56 AM

Hypocrite Has a Point can be a thing, sure. But it depends on the circumstances.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326306: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:29:56 AM

[up][up] Exactly. No one can be true to their values 100% of the time, but I rather try and fail to make the world better than not try at all.

Hypocrisy is bad when is it is used in a malicious way, like the way the GOP will impose a set of values on others that they do not apply to themselves, all the time. Then they are just lying about what they really want.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 9:30:14 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326307: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:38:26 AM

It is if you want "centrists" to actually vote for you. You can't win an election only by appealing to your most committed voters. I'm not even talking about fence-sitters; if you consider Obama and Biden to be "centrists", you've completely lost the thread.

Regardless, you just perfectly illustrated the point of my argument. Congratulations. "Othering" people is bad for politics; you just othered people to make a political point. Slow Clap.

I... made your point by criticizing centrism?

Yes, we should try to get centrists to vote for us. That's why neither Bernie nor Warren ran on a campaign of "fuck centrists", but they certainly criticized centrist candidates. Which is my point, treating centrism as a protected class isn't actually helpful from any kind of progressive pov.

I'm not "othering" anyone by recognizing how their solutions are terrible.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2020 at 9:44:03 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326308: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:40:48 AM

[up][up] Overlord, I was responding to your comment that:

Ben Shapiro's facts over feelings slogan is non sense, because he ignores all the times he put his feelings above facts.

Just because Shapiro ignores when he's putting his own feelings before facts doesn't mean one shouldn't prefer facts to feelings.

Edited by PointMaid on Sep 5th 2020 at 12:41:07 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326309: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:45:44 AM

Also, I think it's ironic to defend centrists when their most common contribution to politics is widely hated in this thread.

That contribution? That both sides are the same, whenever you see someone complaining that "both sides are just too political and mean, they should work together" you're seeing centrism in action. And it's terrible for reasons I know I don't have to explain.

Mindless bipartisanship is the heart of centrism, and that's pretty garbage.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326310: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:47:10 AM

To clarify, I'm talking about lumping people like Biden and Obama into the "centrist" group. The "with us or against us, all or nothing" mentality adopted by certain folks on the left is not helpful.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 12:54:42 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326311: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:49:45 AM

[up][up][up] I just saying a lot people will conflate their feelings with their feelings and will rely on their emotions as much as facts or more than facts. No one relies on facts 100% of the time, emotions will always be part of human decisions.

I think appeals to emotion are valid in politics.

If someone says racism is bad, is that a facts statement or a values statement?

I try to balance my values with the facts on the ground, but I am not a robot, my values are part based on facts and part emotions, like everyone's values.

Everyone has their own filter, no one is 100% factual, I just left wing populism has more truth in it than right wing populism.

Also have I made major factual mistakes on this thread? I do think I balance facts and values fairly well.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 9:54:28 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326312: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:54:16 AM

"Nobody can be 100% factual" seems like a poor argument for thus seeking out facts that confirm your opinions, as that risks veering further and further away from reality.

As many sources as possible, avoid opinion sections and editorials, and make sure to include AP and Reuters or something. That's the best bet for factual veracity rather than "facts, recontextualised to please or anger me".

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#326313: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:54:39 AM

x4[up]What exactly qualifies as centrism is widely disputed. What you are describing falls more into the "Enlightened Centrist" category, which pretty much qualifies as a meme these days.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 5th 2020 at 6:54:51 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326314: Sep 5th 2020 at 9:59:56 AM

[up][up] Have I said anything factual incorrect on this forum today?

If I try to get as sources as I can, would that include Brietbart or can I dimiss them? What sources do we count as legitimate and what sources can we dismiss off the bat?

Saying people will make emotional decisions and appeals to emotion is an effective tactic is factual correct, IMO. Just thinking you can win soley on facts, with no appeals to emotion is rather misguided. That is what Clinton tried to do and she lost, sometimes you have to make an emotional argument to be effective.

BLM is both facts and values based, it combines the 2 elements.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:05:10 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326315: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:00:17 AM

To clarify, I'm talking about lumping people like Biden and Obama into the "centrist" group. The "with us or against us, all or nothing" mentality adopted by certain folks on the left is not helpful.

I don't disagree, but I do think that it's also fair to say that Obama was much more moderate than his rhetoric might've suggested and Biden has definitely been a centrist (even if there is reason to accept that the latter has moved to the Left post-task forces).

What exactly qualifies as centrism is widely disputed. What you are describing falls more into the "Enlightened Centrist" category, which pretty much qualifies as a meme these days.

It's a meme of a real thing, aside from radical #bothsiding leftists (who don't really exist in meaningful number) the vast majority of bothsiders are centrists.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:00:29 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326316: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:02:40 AM

[up][up] I'm not sure you've said anything that isn't an argument about political philosophy, though? What sources you rely on for news normally won't apply if not talking about the news.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326317: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:08:24 AM

[up] Sure, but political philosophy is a valid topic, IMO. I have stuck to philosophy because it is a core to how people make value judgments.

I am likely going to dismiss most right wing sites due to my values, but CNN or Wapo will get things right, but there are topics they do not cover.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:13:43 AM

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#326318: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:09:05 AM

Washington Post: Opinion: Biden must support Taiwan in no uncertain terms

The Biden administration's first grave test approaches, not silently on little cat's feet but in the noisy stomping of totalitarians' boots. In 2021, Taiwan might provide the most perilous U.S. moment since the Cuban missile crisis of 1962.

The U.S. policy of "strategic ambiguity" regarding Taiwan has become untenable, as has Joe Biden's 2001 stance. President George W. Bush, asked that year whether the country has an obligation to defend Taiwan against an attack by China, said: "Yes, we do, and the Chinese must understand that." Bush was asked, "With the full force of the American military?" He answered: "Whatever it took." Bush's national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, said "the Taiwan Relations Act makes very clear that the U.S. has an obligation that Taiwan's peaceful way of life is not upset by force."

Biden responded: "No. Not exactly." In a Post op-ed, Biden reaffirmed the U.S. commitment to preserving Taiwan's "autonomy" under the 1979 Taiwan Relations Act, and to providing Taiwan with "defense articles and defense services" necessary for "sufficient self-defense capability." But he said the United States "has not been obligated to defend Taiwan since we abrogated the 1954 Mutual Defense Treaty," in 1980.

The act, Biden said, makes it U.S. policy that "any attempt to determine the future of Taiwan by other than peaceful means would . . . be 'of grave concern.' " But Biden stressed "a huge difference between reserving the right to use force and obligating ourselves, a priori, to come to the defense of Taiwan." He said that neither Taiwan nor Beijing should have "the ability automatically to draw us into a war across the Taiwan Strait."

But even 19 years ago, it was essentially unthinkable that Taiwan would "draw us into" a war by attacking the mainland. Today, time is Taiwan's friend. A 2001 poll measured Taiwanese vs. Chinese identity among Taiwan's residents. It found that 10.6 percent identified as Chinese, 41.6 percent as Taiwanese, 43.1 percent as both. Today, 66 percent identify as just Taiwanese, 28 percent as both, and just 4 percent as Chinese. Although a majority of Taiwanese favor independence someday, today's threat to the status quo comes from Beijing.

The "one China policy" - the diplomatic fiction that the Republic of China (Taiwan) and the People's Republic of China are parts of the same entity - has been made a mockery in Hong Kong. In 2001, China was just beginning the military buildup produced by a 900 percent spending increase between 1990 and 2017. In 2001, China's gross domestic product was 12.7 percent of U.S. GDP. Today, it is almost 70 percent. (The Soviet Union's GDP never exceeded 60 percent of U.S. GDP.) In 2001, China had not begun aggressively claiming, in defiance of international law, sovereignty over the South China Sea's 1.4 million square miles, through which $3.4 trillion of global commerce passes annually. In 2001, Hong Kong's autonomy was presumed to be secure until 2047 under Beijing's 1984 commitment to Britain, which ceded control in 1997.

Today, Hong Kong's liberty is a guttering candle because Chinese dictator Xi Jinping meant what he said in 2017: "The wheels of history roll on, the tides of the times are vast and mighty." Tides with wheels? Never mind. Xi said: "History looks kindly on those with resolve, with drive and ambition, and with plenty of guts; it won't wait for the hesitant." From the bloodshed on the China-India border to the lawless aggressiveness in the South China Sea to the coarse bullying by China's "Wolf Warrior" diplomats, especially in Europe, China is demonstrating the arrogance that begets recklessness.

Furthermore, a regime's internal dynamics often presage external behavior, so it is ominous, the New York Times reports, that Xi's regime is directing the security agencies to "drive the blade in" and "scrape poison off the bone" as they "resolutely put absolute loyalty, absolute purity and absolute dependability into action" to make everyone "obey Xi in everything."

Xi has suffocated Hong Kong because he could, and because free people on China's periphery threaten the mainland with a destabilizing political virus. Regarding Taiwan's 24 million free people, he said last year: "We make no promise to renounce the use of force and reserve the option of taking all necessary means."

To Xi, Taiwan's autonomy means that the communist conquest of China in 1949 remains incomplete. Completing it would secure his place in Chinese history. If he considers attacking Taiwan, or even just one of its nearby islands, will he know President Biden's intentions? Ambiguity is useful in diplomacy, until it becomes dangerous.

Edited by FluffyMcChicken on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:09:45 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326319: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:11:35 AM

Yes, China sucks. I'm not sure what we're supposed to do about it in practical terms, though, without starting World War III.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326320: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:12:23 AM

[up][up]I can't think of anything counterproductive with clearly standing by Taiwan's security, but I do not think it's mutually exclusive with choosing not to recognize them officially.

[up]I imagine the argument is that if we stand by them then China will never attack in the first place.

Though comparing it to the Cuban Missile Crisis is hardly encouraging. :/

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:13:05 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#326321: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:25:13 AM

[up] Is the comparison even accurate?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326322: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:32:36 AM

[up]Well, it's a prediction so it's hard to say.

But I haven't seen evidence of China preparing for hostilities.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#326323: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:33:28 AM

The war with China will not be fought with weapons, it will be a Trade War. Or rather an escalation of it, as it basically already started.

At least that is my prediction.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:33:51 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326325: Sep 5th 2020 at 10:41:34 AM

[up][up]I would hope Biden, and future Democrats, wouldn't be stupid enough to continue Trump's trade policies.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:41:50 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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