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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326276: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:44:17 AM

[up] I think there is a difference between left-wing and right-wing populism, right populism deals with made-up threats (a fake invasion on the Southern border, the deep state), while left-wing populism deals with real problems (structural racism, climate change, income inequality).

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326277: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:44:49 AM

You say 'The American Left', Fighteer. Is there a reason you said that rather than 'American politics in general'?

It's probably my environment, but I have experience with a lot of left-leaning people, and very, very few anti-intellectuals...

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326278: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:45:03 AM

[up][up]That's kind of overly focused on examples in USA politics (which tbf is the topic of this thread).

[up]Clearly you haven't had much exposure to the USA Green Party.

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:45:50 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AngrokVa indighost from america, unfortunately Since: Feb, 2012 Relationship Status: Saddled with unnecessary feelings
indighost
#326279: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:46:37 AM

Okay, we're fucking trying this again:

North Carolina, the state below Virginia, where I live, started its mail-in voting process yesterday.

WASHINGTON – After more than a year and a half of campaigning, eight months of primaries and caucuses, more than two dozen candidates, 11 debates, six months of coronavirus pandemic and two conventions, some Americans are finally starting to vote by mail, two months before Election Day on Nov. 3.

North Carolina, started sending out ballots to voters who requested them today. The ballots will arrive over the next few weeks. Voters can return them as soon as they arrive, likely making the Tar Heel State the first to vote.

But there are still four debates and tens of millions of votes to count before the country will know whether President Donald Trump will serve a second term, or Democratic challenger Joe Biden will succeed in taking the White House.

When does mail-in voting begin in Virginia?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326280: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:47:04 AM

Look, I support Black Lives Matter, and indeed the climate strikes by teenagers, and other similar movements because they are rooted in factual, genuine issues. I'm not saying "all populism is bad". I am saying that populism is a dangerous tool that can just as easily lead to counter-factual, harmful actions being taken simply because they are popular.

Sure, the right's version of populism is based on propaganda and intellectual isolation, but the Left is not immune to these things. Maybe it's the horseshoe effect at work, but when I see notionally progressive people yelling about dismantling Wall Street or getting rid of GMO foods, my eyes roll a bit.

I'm not a fan of government via the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:49:28 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326281: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:48:34 AM

[up][up]I'd suggest getting the info first-hand from Virginia's own department of elections.

Here's their site.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326282: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:49:17 AM

@Fighteer: I don't think the American Left can really be said to derive from the Jeffersonian tradition, save perhaps for certain agrarian populist movements of the past.

Also it's fine to want the most knowledgeable people to have a saying in how decisions are made, but just because they are the most qualified doesn't mean they will make the best decisions, especially if their wealth, political power, and/or influence depend on them making "incorrect" decisions.

Besides, the views that are most perpetuated are those of the most wealth not the most "popular" views.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326283: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:50:58 AM

@ Angrok Va, Perhaps this website may help, it's from the Virginian government:

https://www.elections.virginia.gov/casting-a-ballot/absentee-voting/

@ Fighter, I think populism is a tatic, not an ideology and I think using it move the Overton window is a good thing. You may not get everything you want, but never start out with small demands, make a big ask and go down from there.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:52:07 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326284: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:59:15 AM

Here's my fundamental problem: popularity cannot, by itself, establish truth. Quite frankly, I don't trust the average person to make informed decisions on the wide range of topics facing us today. We are, collectively, far too dependent on what's being fed to us by media and far too easy to sway by appeal to our innate biases.

The people on this forum tend to be exceptions because we voluntarily seek out political debate, and even here we can see each other's biases informing our views. If I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone in a public discussion who is completely, even vehemently ignorant of the facts... well, I'd be able to upgrade my housing situation, that's for sure.

Part of this... maybe even most... can be laid at the failings of our education system, which in turn can be laid at the intentional efforts by those "elites" we like to go on about, who benefit from a docile labor force that is passively receptive to whatever comes at them over the idiot box.

I'm not actually sure how to escape this trap. Politics feels like a war between different sets of powerful interests using media to spread their propaganda to the largest number of people possible. The difference is that there is actually a set of beliefs that is aligned with factual reality, and when I have to choose, I'm going to go with them.

Here's what I will never trust: a politician who creates or panders to biases in their supporters and then uses those biases to justify their positions. "Hey, everyone, X is to blame for your problems." [...] "Look at all these people who think that X is to blame for their problems! I'm just doing what they want."

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 11:02:03 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#326285: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:01:30 AM

So a couple of low-key stories that are still rather critical, especially the latter in light of the North Carolina mail-in ballots starting up.

A) Fox News reporter Jennifer Griffin confirmed reports that Trump had the disparaging comments on her Twitter - Trump is now calling for her to be fired from Fox, saying “Jennifer Griffin should be fired for this kind of reporting. Never even called us for comment. Fox News is gone!” [Edited for clarity - her original Tweet is - "Two former sr Trump admin officials confirm .@JeffreyGolberg reporting that President Trump disparaged veterans and did not want to drive to honor American war dead at Aisne-Marne Cemetary outside Paris."] Ugh, and fuck me, he even cited Breitbart in the tweet demanding her firing.

B) Debbie Wasserman-Schulz had arranged a tour of a couple of major postal facilities after Union members had contacted her office with concerns - and she was greeted by Postal Inspectors who blocked her from entry. The claim made by the USPS is that she gave too short of notice for such a tour to be conducted, which she countered by saying that such short notice was the point - otherwise issues on the floor could be swept under the rug prior to her visit.

And I've no idea when mail-in voting starts in Virginia, nor even my own state of NY - though I'll probably run the risk of in-person voting anyway because my signature has changed wildly since I first registered to vote, and I don't want a mail-in ballot to be tossed on those grounds. If anyone knows how to submit a signature alteration for their files, I'd genuinely appreciate it!

Edited by ironballs16 on Sep 5th 2020 at 11:18:49 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#326286: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:03:26 AM

How does CNN compare to CNN International? From my understanding, the two are a bit different.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326287: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:07:55 AM

So, the defence being offered for shooting is "I was in a militia!" An illegal militia not under state control. Uh...thanks for the extra charge?

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#326288: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:09:40 AM

[up]

Erm, in what regard? I'm assuming the Rittenhouse vigilantism, but a link would be helpful, especially with how quick the thread's moving. [down] I figured as much, considering how active the board is this morning.

One Googling Later... - Found it, in an Op-Ed that decries just how dangerous that kind of defense would actually be if it's accepted as an argument.

Edited by ironballs16 on Sep 5th 2020 at 11:12:13 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326289: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:10:37 AM

It was on the previous page but I don't have it open to copy on my phone.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#326290: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:22:14 AM

"Fox News reporter Jennifer Griffin confirmed reports that Trump had the disparaging comments on her Twitter"

AP and the Washington Post reporters have also independently confirmed what the Atlantic said as well.

Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326291: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:24:09 AM

Trump called a McCain a loser for being captured, why is anyone surprised about that?

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 8:24:41 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326292: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:26:24 AM

Nobody is surprised but that doesnt't mean we should normalise such thingas even further by accepting it as Trump being Trump.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#326293: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:28:04 AM

[up][up]

It's more the furious public denials on his administration's part, coupled with this being a very bad thing to come out as they're working to dismantle the Stars & Stripes news organization, and just two months before the election. Plus, with McCain and the Khans, he could just say It's Personal - insulting soldiers in general, especially dead ones, whom he's never known and have never done anything to "attack" him, is another matter entirely.

Edited by ironballs16 on Sep 5th 2020 at 11:29:35 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326294: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:29:41 AM

They backtracked on that with Trump now claiming he saved the paper.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#326295: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:30:22 AM

Where did McCain's bad reputation come from anyway? I mean sure, he is a Neocon, their ideology has been rightfully thrown into the trash heap for years now, but where does this resentment towards him in particular come from? Some Republicans even call him a traitor / turncoat to the Vietcong. Why?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326296: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:30:35 AM

[up][up]Of course they did. Trump "saved" the paper from his own attempts to kill it. What a hero.

McCain refused to go along with the party's plummet off of the right-wing cliff, so he became an enemy.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 11:31:08 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#326297: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:31:43 AM

[up][up][up] He gave the GOP a thumbs down on their vote and attempt to "disable Obamacare without replacing it with anything else".

Among other things...

Edited by TitanJump on Sep 5th 2020 at 5:32:12 PM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326298: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:32:34 AM

I'm not actually sure how to escape this trap. Politics feels like a war between different sets of powerful interests using media to spread their propaganda to the largest number of people possible. The difference is that there is actually a set of beliefs that is aligned with factual reality, and when I have to choose, I'm going to go with them.

Well, yeah that is what politics is among other things. And as for the second part of that statement, I think you are running headlong into the "Is/Ought" distiction there, because I think your failing to recognize that "factual reality" does not produce a perfect belief system. Someone can have a belief system that is largely opposite of your own and it can still align with facts.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#326299: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:36:40 AM

Another way to put it is that you can never have a completely objective view of factual reality. Your perception of reality is always going to be coloured by your own experiences and beliefs.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326300: Sep 5th 2020 at 8:39:47 AM

You can recognize that, though. One can believe in a certain view of reality while recognizing that others may have somewhat different views which are not necessarily wrong. While also recognizing those views which objectively do not line up with reality as, well, not conforming to the facts.


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