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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326226: Sep 5th 2020 at 6:57:50 AM

@M84: I'm not sure if that's a useful definition, especially if you are taking a pro or anti-populist stance since that just allows you to dismiss large swathes of views and opinions without even having to think about it.

I tend to prefer to define populism as a style of rhetoric that defines a "people", and an "elite", and defines them as "good" and "bad" respectively.

Something to keep in mind is that no political program can represent all of the people so whoever the "people" and "elites" are is something that is defined and constructed by whoever the political populist are. That's how you can get such narrow definitions as "White Middle Americans" as being the "people" while everyone on the coast is the elites.

That latter part is why I would consider populism to be dangerous as opposed to just a general anti-elitism, because sometimes the elites are bad and should be opposed. But that requires identifying who the elites in society really are and if their influence is negative, as opposed to the elites just being whoever you don't like.

Edited by Mio on Sep 5th 2020 at 9:58:51 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326227: Sep 5th 2020 at 6:59:07 AM

It's about framing your opponents as "elites" to be defeated. Whether or not the opponents actually are corrupt elites who need to be opposed varies.

That's why I say it has tons of anti-elitism.

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:01:31 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326228: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:01:03 AM

@ Drunken Nordmann, Exactly Breadtube is a huge community with wildly different people in it, they are not the Borg, heck a lot of them end up fighting with each other.

Also BLM is a populist movement, should we reject it just because its populist.

I do get my news from a lot of sources, but I think having an actual set of values that informs your world view is inevitable. My values reflect left wing populism and I think saying any sort of populism is bad because of Trump's reactionary populism is throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:03:27 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#326229: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:01:09 AM

[up][up]Which, in Trump's case, is very ironic, considering the guy is a Multi-Billionaire who didn't even earn it via 'hard work'.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 5th 2020 at 4:01:33 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#326230: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:01:29 AM

[up][up][up][up] Three Arrows has repeatedly called out people for preferring fascism to an imperfect candidate, so there's that.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 5th 2020 at 4:02:29 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#326231: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:01:36 AM

[up] Its hyperbolic and Thought Slime is a something of an Anarchist bomb thrower. I still like some of his content and he does take on the alt right not just liberals, but he is just infotainment.
I'm aware it was deliberately hyperbolic. My main point is, far as I'm personally concerned, that's only more reason not to give them a click.

Re: Populism - Between Trump, Brexit, and Bernie Sanders (or, to be more precise and fair to Sanders himself, the Unicorn Brigade Bernie or Busters) I've become inherently skeptical, if not suspicious, of anything that seems overly populist.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:03:02 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326232: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:02:14 AM

[up][up][up]Doesn't matter to his supporters. He's not "elite" to them because of (shallow) reasons like him eating Mc Donalds.

These are the kind of people who raised a fuss over Obama wearing tan suits and eating arugula after all. They are also the people who got super pissed over a Marine holding an umbrella over Obama.

It's the same kind of mentality that frames people who live in California as "coastal elites" regardless of how much their actual income or influence is.

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:07:19 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326233: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:06:48 AM

I think just saying populism is bad is reductive logic and a way to dismiss a wide variety of information and view points.

I think I would prefer someone like Vaush to Thought Slime, though both are left wing anarchists, Vaush thinks its a good idea to elect Biden and then hold his feet to the fire. Vaush is more willing to work within the system than Thought Slime is.

I like Thought Slime's content, but he does just preach to the choir, he is not a good intro to leftist thought.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:09:24 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326234: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:08:28 AM

I'm sorry, but as soon as anyone talks about anarchism as a serious political ideology, I tune out.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:08:41 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#326235: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:09:43 AM

I think just saying populism is bad is reductive logic and a way to dismiss a wide variety of information and view points.
When you have three distinct places where populism had a negative outcome in a short span of time, it feels less like reductive dismissal and more like pattern recognition.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#326236: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:10:06 AM

[up][up]That one is on you.

Edited by RainehDaze on Sep 5th 2020 at 3:10:26 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326237: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:10:15 AM

Another problem with populism is that it all too often goes hand-in-hand with anti-intellectualism as well. Probably because academia and education is considered a trait of the "elite".

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:11:39 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326238: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:11:15 AM

[up][up][up][up][up]It's kind of hard to escape populism if you do do any kind of political campaign. Hell, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Biden's pre and early primary campaign was based on a kind of Centrist Populism with his big emphasis on a return to normalcy and a rejection of extremists.

Admittedly he never really framed the people he's against as elites so that isn't quite the best example.

Edited by Mio on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:11:53 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326239: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:11:36 AM

When I turn on the TV and see shows like Desperate Housewives and 90 Day Fiancee glorifying the dumbest, most selfish, most self-centered, and least educated people in the country, I think... yeah, let's appeal to populism. Clearly the average American understands all they need to know about economics, military strategy, international politics, science and technology, finance, law...

Let me clarify: there's nothing wrong with explaining to voters how policies will benefit them, or asking voters what they want. We should do that. The problem is when you create artificial divisions between the common person and "elites", be they intellectual, financial, or whatever, and then use those elites as scapegoats.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:13:16 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326240: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:13:14 AM

@ Fighter, Its not my ideology, but I think its interesting and legitimate. I buy into Market Socialism, less ambitious, but more achievable, IMO:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_socialism

I think there are some interesting anarchist thinkers out there, even if I do not agree with them on everything.

@ sgamer82, I also think you need populism to fight something like structural racism. BLM is populist movement, fighting elite racist power structures.

Edited by Overlord on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:15:58 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#326241: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:13:29 AM

It's kind of hard to escape populism if you do do any kind of political campaign. Hell, I don't think it is unreasonable to say that Biden's pre and early primary campaign was based on a kind of Centrist Populism with his big emphasis on a return to normalcy and a rejection of extremists.

Admittedly he never really framed the people he's against as elites so that isn't quite the best example.

You can argue that populism has its place, if nothing else you need popularity to win elections, but when a movement or campaign seems based primarily on it, that's when you should be wary because, I think, that's when you start seeing people stop thinking.

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:14:35 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#326242: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:13:56 AM

I also think you need populism to fight something like structural racism.

Ironic, when racism is a highly populist phenomenon.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#326243: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:14:17 AM

I find the disdain for populism rather than ignorance to be a disdain for the common people affected by law. It is the heart of the conservative movement and an enemy of democracy.

At the end, those ruled should say how they should be ruled.

Ironic, when racism is a highly populist phenomenon.

Almost like populism means the opinion of the public and people who hate it don't care about the opinions of the people.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:15:10 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326244: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:14:35 AM

[up][up][up][up]Except populism is part of what fuels structural racism, at least in the USA.

[nja]

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:14:56 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#326245: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:14:52 AM

On the other hand a lot of anti-populism has been trending towards a pro-elitist and even an anti-democratic strain, which I hopefully shouldn't have to say why that is bad.

I really don't want to see the broad trend of "Illiberal Democracy" countered with "Undemocratic Liberalism".

[up][up][up][up]It's really less important to me that any particular person is utilizing populism so much as who are they defining as the "people" and who are they defining as the "elites". That'll tell you a lot more about what their program actually is rather then just focusing on their rhetoric.

Edited by Mio on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:17:46 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#326246: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:15:58 AM

The problem with populism is that the definitions of "elite" and "anti-elite" are so damn arbitrary. They can be whatever you want them to be.

Edited by M84 on Sep 5th 2020 at 10:16:19 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326247: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:16:00 AM

Three Arrows has repeatedly called out people for preferring fascism to an imperfect candidate, so there's that.

That's lovely to hear, his content has been great and it would be awful if he was a buster like Shaun.

Ironic, when racism is a highly populist phenomenon.

I'm not sure how useful statements like this are.

Anti-racism has also been a highly populist phenomenon.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2020 at 7:17:51 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#326248: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:16:29 AM

Yes, people who hate populism seem to have a decided strain of royalist, "Only the elite should dictate to the unwashed mashes" attitudes that I sincerely loathe.

Not all of them but enough I'm deeply suspicious of anyone who uses it as a slur.

People accused abolitionism and Civil Rights of being populist rhetoric.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Overlord Since: Mar, 2013
#326249: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:18:30 AM

@ M84, is BLM not a populist movement, are they not taking on elite structures like the militarized police?

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#326250: Sep 5th 2020 at 7:19:10 AM

I'm going to argue there's a distinct difference between 'anti-intellectualism' and 'anti-elitism'. One seems to dismiss the idea that there could be people with a better understanding and therefore better equipped to answer questions than any random person. The other seems against people acting 'better than the common person' for whatever reason. They can interact, but are not synonymous.

The American Revolution was anti-elite. The King and Parliament thought they were better than the North Americans implicitly and had a right to set the rules. The Americans disagreed.

The anti-vaccine movement, or at least a lot of it, is anti-intellectual. No matter there is no actual evidence of a connection between vaccines and autism and what doctors say (and the one study which suggested so was discredited and could not be replicated), they know better.


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