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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325976: Sep 3rd 2020 at 9:49:20 AM

Where would Trump reside until the court proceedings were concluded, which would likely take years and years?

It would be up to the relevant courts, he could be held on remand due to being deemed a flight risk, or he could be allowed out on bail.

I believe that he will have a security detail regardless, as he retains his secret service protection even after leaving office. How they’d interact with any attempt to flee is uncharted territory.

No, nothing about China's nationalism forces us to pursue the myopic and irrational path of pursuing geopolitical rivalry at the expense of fighting the far more serious threat of Climate Change.

I would note that it is possible to thread the needle, one can address climate change, stand up to sabre-rattling/human rights abuses and not engage in the racism and tension stoking that Trump has engaged in.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 3rd 2020 at 4:51:04 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#325977: Sep 3rd 2020 at 9:52:31 AM

[up][up][up]If China is not going to be amenable to cooperation for both understandable, and not so understandable reasons then we are kind of stuck aren't we?

I'm not saying it's something that should happen, but it is something we should consider given how things are at the moment. That being said that doesn't me we should pursue active antagonism of China at every turn like Trump and the GOP has embraced.

Edited by Mio on Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:53:08 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325978: Sep 3rd 2020 at 9:53:20 AM

"Fight climate change by capitulating to everything China wants at the expense of everyone in the region!"

Appeasement isn't going to get them to play nice on Climate Change. If they do anything about it, that's going to be because of self interest, not how pathetically friendly everyone else is.

This is a hell of a strawman.

Nor is it the first time you've disingenuously distorted my position, please stop it.

I have never once advocated for abandoning anyone, nor have I advocated for appeasement. That you automatically conflate cooperation with capitulation says far more about your mindset than mine.

I would note that it is possible to thread the needle, one can address climate change, stand up to sabre-rattling/human rights abuses and not engage in the racism and tension stoking that Trump has engaged in.

Yes, but treating China purely as the enemy isn't that.

Furthermore, it's worth pointing out that I was responding to a post that was favorably positing that the Republicans have been successfully pressuring the Democrats to be "tough" on China. Suffice to say, the Right isn't interested in threading the needle because they're racists who deny Climate Change. They shouldn't be permitted to set the narrative.

If China is not going to be amenable to cooperation for both understandable, and not so understandable reasons then we are kind of stuck aren't we?

I'm not saying it's something that should happen, but it is something we should consider given how things are at the moment. That being said that doesn't me we should pursue active antagonism of China at every turn like Trump and the GOP has embraced.

From my perspective, China sure as hell doesn't have a monopoly on uncooperative behavior.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 3rd 2020 at 9:58:30 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325979: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:00:52 AM

[up] I deliberately avoided indicating that I was either disagreeing with you or refuting what you said, my point was simply to reject the binary option that had been presented, you were simply the latest comment on the subject.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#325980: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:07:09 AM

AP News: Chamber of Commerce releases House endorsements, includes many Democrats on their list

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce has decided to endorse 23 freshmen House Democrats in this fall's elections, a bipartisan move by an organization that has long leaned strongly toward Republicans.

The country's largest business group is also endorsing 29 freshmen House Republicans, said a person familiar with the organization's decision who described the actions. Even so, the decision has prompted internal divisions, with some state chamber officials criticizing the national group's decision to back freshmen Democrats in their areas.


The House freshmen the chamber is endorsing include several who face tough reelections, such as Reps. Abby Finkenauer and Cindy Axne of Iowa, Andy Kim of New Jersey, Xochitl Torres Small of New Mexico, Anthony Brindisi of New York, Kendra Horn of Oklahoma, Joe Cunningham of South Carolina and Elaine Luria and Abigail Spanberger of Virginia.

The chamber is also endorsing freshmen Democratic Reps. Greg Stanton of Arizona; Josh Harder, TJ Cox and Harley Rouda of California; Sharice Davids of Kansas; David Trone of Maryland; Haley Stevens of Michigan; Angie Craig and Dean Phillips of Minnesota; Susie Lee of Nevada; Antonio Delgado of New York; Colin Allred and Lizzie Fletcher of Texas and Ben McAdams of Utah.

They're also said to be endorsing an extra 7 non-freshman Dems, though no word on who, yet.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#325981: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:07:15 AM

[up][up][up]I'm not saying that they do, I'm saying that we should still consider the p[possibility that even if we do a complete 180 on our geopolitical antagonisms and desired relationship towards China they may decide (understandably I think) that they do not want to cooperate with the US on anything and will consider them a geopolitical rival (even on the subject of Climate Change) regardless.

You have to admit that this is a real possibility, and that correcting it may not be practically possible even over the medium or long term.

If that signals to you that the worse of Climate Change is guaranteed in that scenario, then I don't really know how to respond save that I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Edited by Mio on Sep 3rd 2020 at 1:07:32 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325982: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:12:09 AM

I'm not saying that they do, I'm saying that we should still consider the p[possibility that even if we do a complete 180 on our geopolitical antagonisms and desired relationship towards China they may decide (understandably I think) that they do not want to cooperate with the US on anything and will consider them a geopolitical rival (even on the subject of Climate Change) regardless.

You have to admit that this is a real possibility, and that correcting it may not be practically possible even over the medium or long term.

If that signals to you that the worse of Climate Change is guaranteed in that scenario, then I don't really know how to respond save that I don't necessarily disagree with you.

I don't agree. Climate Change would hurt them badly, thus cooperation against it intrinsically benefits their interests.

I don't see any reason to believe that a US with a more cooperative mindset towards China wouldn't be able to work with them.

AP News: Chamber of Commerce releases House endorsements, includes many Democrats on their list

Well, that's an awful sign.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:15:11 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#325983: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:17:37 AM

Fourthspartan: The problem is that following the Republican lead in regards to China and North Korea is insane. Not only are they Climate Change denialists and thus their foreign policy should be intrinsically tainted to rational people but their efforts have accomplished nothing. The trade war? A disaster that has hurt our economy for no benefit. North Korea? Even more pointless.

Republican pressure is terrible, I deeply hope Democrats don't emulate them.

How convenient of you to ignore the one country in Asia that the Republicans have been so successful in aiding that even Biden became the first Democratic candidate to congratulate its anti-CCP president on her election victory.

How Trump & Biden Differ on Taiwan

Key passges:

The United States 2020 presidential election - just over two months away - has been an object of much speculation in Taiwan. In particular, U.S.-Taiwan relations saw tectonic shifts under the Trump administration, and some question what the next presidential administration may bode for Taiwan.

Since the Trump administration took office, one has seen the passage of legislation supportive of Taiwan including the Taiwan Travel Act, TAIPEI Act, and the US$250 million expansion of America's de facto embassy in Taiwan, the American Institute in Taiwan. Several arms sales have taken place, including a US$330 million arms sale to the ROC Air Force in September 2018 and a US$2.2 billion arms sale of M 1 A 2 T Abrams tanks, Stinger missiles, and other equipment in July 2019.

American military activities have also increased in the area around Taiwan as a response to China' aggressive drills, including sending naval vessels into waters near Taiwan and warplanes across the median line of the Taiwan Straits. Further legislation that has been introduced, such as the Taiwan Defense Act, would bring America just short of a formal commitment to defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese invasion.

U.S. Secretary of Health and Human Services Alex Azar, who visited Taiwan earlier this month under the auspices of learning from Taiwan's successes fighting Covid-19, was the highest-ranking cabinet official to travel to Taiwan since 1979.

Such actions have led some to label the Trump administration "the most pro-Taiwan" American presidential administration in history.

By contrast, a Biden administration might encounter distrust from Taiwan because of the deeply-rooted perception in Taiwan that Republicans are more steadfast allies of Taiwan compared to Democrats. This is a product of the emphasis on engagement with China as a way of pushing the country to change by Democrats in the past, with a particular focus on economic engagement, and the cancellation of previously planned arms sales of F-16s to Taiwan by the Obama administration, an act that the pan-Green camp has never forgiven.

In the event of a Biden presidency, it has been noted that despite Biden sometimes being thought of as dovish on foreign policy, the Biden administration has sought to ramp up its anti-China rhetoric.

Significantly, Biden was the first Democratic presidential candidate to congratulate Tsai on her reelection in January 2020. In this respect, as continuing sanctions against China, arms sales to Taiwan, and attacking China on trade issues, as former Washington Post Beijing bureau chief John Pomfret wrote in a recent editorial, Biden could potentially counterintuitively be "The main beneficiary of the Trump administration's China policy," in inheriting the Trump administration's playbook against China.

Many of the foreign policy advisors in the Biden administration are hawkish and that Biden advisers have gone on the record with statements on China to try and negate Biden's image as soft on China. China is an issue that Trump has sought to attack Biden on, depicting Biden as the candidate that China would want to have win.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#325984: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:20:11 AM

Well, that's an awful sign.

Why?

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325985: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:25:57 AM

How convenient of you to ignore the one country in Asia that the Republicans have been so successful in aiding that even Biden became the first Democratic candidate to congratulate its anti-CCP president on her election victory.

Successful in aiding against... what? There has been no invasion, they have done nothing to concretely protect Taiwan from any threat.

It really shows how unsubstantive your point is that your example of Democrats doing the same is Biden congratulating a victorious candidate as if that isn't the most performative act possible.

I didn't mention Taiwan because Trump's actions there mean nothing.

Why?

They're a group of business interests who universally supported Republicans, they care about profit and nothing else. Their support is not something we should welcome.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:28:22 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#325986: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:26:53 AM

[up][up][up][up]Climate Change would also hurt us terribly, and yet here we are.

I would not assume that the CCP is that much more rational on a long enough timeline then we are. Like us I think it is safer to assume that if ignore climate change will grant them an shorter term advantage in wealth or political power (like most nations in the world right now) they will take it.

Edited by Mio on Sep 3rd 2020 at 1:27:13 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325987: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:28:01 AM

Climate Change would also hurt us terribly, and yet here we are.

I would not assume that the CCP is that much more rational on a long enough timeline then we are. Like us I think it is safer to assume that if ignore climate change will grant them an shorter term advantage in wealth or political power (like most nations in the world right now) they will take it.

No, I definitely think they're more consistently rational then we are. Half of our political spectrum is actively delusional and panders to morons, I don't see any reason to assume that other polities are automatically as crippled as we are.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#325988: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:29:11 AM

The majority of the US seems to lean to be economically conservative. Their support of a financially conservative group I thought would lure in more centrists and moderate conservatives.

Certainly at the cost of progressives and - you know. Healthy finances, but.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325989: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:31:21 AM

Perpetuating a harmful status quo isn't what I'd call "good".

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#325990: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:41:54 AM

The chamber has a long track record of using most of its political might to back Republican candidates, especially with money. But the organization has had to recalibrate its tactics as the once-reliably pro-business GOP has taken a more populist, conservative hue on issues like immigration and trade, reflecting the views of President Donald Trump and hard-right tea party adherents whose numbers in Congress have grown.

In earlier indications of the chamber's more bipartisan approach, it has boosted some campaign contributions to Democrats and changed how it assigns publicly released scores about whether lawmakers help business, now factoring in whether they try reaching across party lines.

The moves come as Democrats seem all but certain to continue running the House after November's elections. Any support for Democrats helps the chamber maintain lines of communication with them, especially as growing numbers of progressive Democrats in Congress makes it harder for business groups to find allies in the party.


Some state chambers complained to U.S. chamber officials about the expected endorsements, arguing that the Democratic lawmakers did not have sufficiently pro-business records.

It looks like that's the rationale - Republicans are moving away from being pro-business and have become a MAGA party, and the national Chamber doesn't want to be locked out in the very high likelihood that Dems keep the House.

So far, they haven't said they'll be spending money the way they do to help Republican candidates, though.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#325991: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:42:00 AM

[up][up][up][up] You don't have to be all that rational to exceed the US in collective rationality right now, but I simply don't agree that China is sufficiently rational on a long-term scale to recognize that cooperation with the US on climate change is still better then any possible short-term hit to their political power/ wealth.

And even if they are collectively that rational China may still not believe that the US is trustworthy enough to cooperate on a long-term project like that.

Edited by Mio on Sep 3rd 2020 at 1:42:18 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325992: Sep 3rd 2020 at 10:49:58 AM

You don't have to be all that rational to exceed the US in collective rationality right now, but I simply don't agree that China is sufficiently rational on a long-term scale to recognize that cooperation with the US on climate change is still better then any possible short-term hit to their political power/ wealth.

And even if they are collectively that rational China may still not believe that the US is trustworthy enough to cooperate on a long-term project like that.

I think the latter is far more plausible than the former, but regardless I'd say trying and failing is better then not trying at all.

Not that you've claimed otherwise (as far as I can tell), just that the natural response to this is "we'll cross that bridge if we come to it".

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#325993: Sep 3rd 2020 at 11:03:26 AM

[up]Fair enough I suppose.

I'm just far more skeptical about it working out then you are, and I think acknowledging that it isn't just our choice as to whether we cooperate or not is worth pointing out in this conversation.

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#325994: Sep 3rd 2020 at 11:10:38 AM

Oh. Huh. I missed this one. All the way back in June, apparently.

The looming election of the Inter-American Development Bank has a Trump proposed President. Despite the fact that informally, it has been agreed upon that the President of that institution would be Latin American, and the Vice President from the U.S.

Several people have pushed for the election to be postponed until after the U.S elections with concerns a Trump appointee (Mauricio Claver-Carone) will not be able to work with the United States Senate.

Today, one of the candidates for this position, Laura Chinchilla, Former president of Costa Rica, cited the Pandemic and the maneuvers by the U.S as reasons to withdraw her candidacy.

So there is politial presure felt from the outside that Trump is not trusted to win. Do not listen to Chinchilla. She aint the sharpest tool in the shed.

Edited by Aszur on Sep 4th 2020 at 12:11:37 AM

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#325995: Sep 3rd 2020 at 11:34:57 AM

China is actually pushing climate change policy very hard. It's got huge incentive programs for solar and electric vehicle adoption and is investing heavily in renewables. It's doing better than the U.S. is, at least.

Now, China has an inherent disadvantage in a huge rural population that is rapidly modernizing, adding pollution faster than it can clean it up, but that's going to be the case with any developing nation. You don't go straight from subsistence farming and sweatshop labor to solar and wind without stumbling through a fossil fuel era, at least not yet.

None of this has anything to do with China's form of government, although I dare say it's been doing way better than ours on this particular issue. At least it's not being run by a party that denies that climate change is even happening.

At this moment in history, there is no criticism of China that we could possibly make without appearing grotesquely hypocritical. Maybe in 2021 we could flip that around again.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 3rd 2020 at 2:36:47 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
nova92 Since: Apr, 2020
#325996: Sep 3rd 2020 at 11:54:26 AM

Finally found an article that talks about possible filibuster reforms, from the WSJ.

  • Keep the cloture rule in its current form but lower the threshold for cloture: A proposal offered in the past would lower the number of votes needed by three in each successive attempt to invoke cloture; so, after the first try, the bar would go from 60 to 57, then to 54 on the second try, to a simple majority of 51 on the third.

  • Make more bills immune to filibustering: So-called reconciliation rules already fast-track legislation tied to the budget by allowing passage with just 51 votes. Senators could extend that rule to other issues such as voting rights, raising the federal debt limit or funding the federal government.

  • Force senators to talk: The idea is that making filibusters physically harder would reduce their frequency, ensuring members of the minority reserve filibustering for issues they feel so strongly about that they are willing endure inconvenience, public scrutiny and discomfort.

  • Reverse the attendance burden on cloture votes: Instead of requiring 60 votes to end debate, require 41 votes to keep debate going-and hold cloture votes on the weekend or late at night. Minority lawmakers keep the right to try to block any bill they want, but they have to have at least 40 colleagues on the floor to help them do it. "You're raising the cost for filibustering," said Mr. Koger.

Also there's a separate article from the WSJ that says there are "at least five lawmakers who currently oppose such a move" [ending the filibuster]. It looks like they're talking about the usual five I keep seeing in these articles (Manchin, Sinema, Tester, Feinstein, King), don't know if there are any others.

PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#325997: Sep 3rd 2020 at 11:58:18 AM

Discussion of the relative ease of Tuesday's Primary election in Massachussetts and what it could mean for the General

Of note: On the positives, they discussed that election authorities were allowed to start tallying and checking signatures on the envelopes of ballots that had already arrived before election night, so there wasn't as much of a crunch on the night itself. They mentioned this is something states that don't do this could implement before the general. Negative, we had an 'arrive by' deadline, not a 'postmarked by' deadline, which means you don't have to wait a few days to get late arrivals, but risks disenfranchisement of people who mail their ballots late. We did have a lot of ballot drop boxes as an alternative, though.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#325998: Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:06:00 PM

[up][up]

Gotta admit, I genuinely like those reforms - not entirely sure about the cloture scaling, but reversing which side has to have people present and especially having them actually need to filibuster are both very good moves!

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#325999: Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:13:08 PM

[up][up][up] They do sound promising, or at least intriguing (not having much practical experience that would tell me what the pitfalls might be).

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#326000: Sep 3rd 2020 at 12:24:51 PM

China is actually pushing climate change policy very hard. It's got huge incentive programs for solar and electric vehicle adoption and is investing heavily in renewables. It's doing better than the U.S. is, at least.

Now, China has an inherent disadvantage in a huge rural population that is rapidly modernizing, adding pollution faster than it can clean it up, but that's going to be the case with any developing nation. You don't go straight from subsistence farming and sweatshop labor to solar and wind without stumbling through a fossil fuel era, at least not yet.

None of this has anything to do with China's form of government, although I dare say it's been doing way better than ours on this particular issue. At least it's not being run by a party that denies that climate change is even happening.

At this moment in history, there is no criticism of China that we could possibly make without appearing grotesquely hypocritical. Maybe in 2021 we could flip that around again.

Well said! [tup]

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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