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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#32576: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:29:24 PM

Now you must know what Grizzly feels like.

DeviantBraeburn Wandering Jew from Dysfunctional California Since: Aug, 2012
Wandering Jew
#32577: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:30:26 PM

[up][up][up]

Fair enough.

[up][lol]

Its funny because it's true.

Michele Bachmann's Gay Stepsister Helen LaFave 'Stunned' By Bachmann's Homophobia.

edited 14th Oct '12 2:34:36 PM by DeviantBraeburn

Everything is Possible. But some things are more Probable than others. JEBAGEDDON 2016
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#32578: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:34:26 PM

@Glenn: ...True. However, at the time of writing that post, I hadn't yet seen your posts that were sort of on my side. Still, the argument was very one sided.

@Tomu-uguu~: This is hardly the first time I've had an argument like this in the TvTropes fora... But, yeah, he has my sympathies.

chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#32579: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:48:54 PM

I realized that it's hard giving concrete evidence for a political argument, when every source has a political agenda or lean and some degree of unreliability.

For example, if I ask for someone to give a source to show that "the US's military is more expensive than the next 13", I can question the source based on many different factors, and ask for more.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#32580: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:53:07 PM

I remember when I took Sociology, my teacher told the class that once you get into political sciences, it is incredibly difficult, if not down right impossible to not have a bias on something or another.

Its true if you're studying it in a classroom, with other scientists, or with forum goers.

edited 14th Oct '12 2:53:32 PM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#32581: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:56:53 PM

My source.

The US military budget is 711 billion. The 13 countries under us have a combined military budget of 693.2, and the 14 countries under us have a combined military budget of 711.1, so we're bigger than the 13 below us, but not the 14 below us, though only barely.

chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#32582: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:58:33 PM

[up] Do you know how reliable the people who compiled the statistics are?

TheyCallMeTomu Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#32583: Oct 14th 2012 at 2:58:36 PM

Generally speaking, I think it's best to not just dismiss a source on the basis of its ideological slant. Instead, it's important to consider the context of the info.

For example, while the US spends a shit ton on its military, the US is also a fairly large country. That being said, population size wise, China is much better, and yet spends a lot less-but then again, they pay their soldiers less. So, raw spending may or may not be a good explanation.

deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#32584: Oct 14th 2012 at 3:03:02 PM

[up][up] They appear to be reliable enough, and there's nothing to suggest they would inflate any budget.

[up] I believe the source chi gave put the US at 43% of the world's military spending. That's too much.

chihuahua0 Since: Jul, 2010
#32585: Oct 14th 2012 at 3:03:43 PM

The person who I showed the statistics too said he would have to know "what the organization is, what their political standing is, how they're measuring the statistics, and then what other sources (some on the opposite side of the political spectrum) say."

Yeah, it's hard supporting an argument on statistics alone.

[up] And then there's China, who may or may not be reporting their spending reliably.

And as Tomu said, there's also context. We need to see how the military is spending it's money.

edited 14th Oct '12 3:06:06 PM by chihuahua0

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#32586: Oct 14th 2012 at 3:08:55 PM

@ tclittle:

Not just the Political Sciences; I was told the same when referring to History, and to Historians.

Keep Rolling On
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#32587: Oct 14th 2012 at 4:41:45 PM

[up]In fact, the bias of the source, once identified, can actually end up adding information into the pot, as you take it into account. That's one of the wonders about Historical evaluation and re-evaluation. smile

Politics is the History of the now, basically. So, you need to pretty much use the same tool-set. smile

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#32588: Oct 14th 2012 at 4:59:39 PM

Koch Industries warns of layoffs if Obama is reelected.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/koch-industries-sends-pro-romney-packet-employees-195709471--election.html

Instilling fear and threats to gain political power? Pretty sure that's terrorism in a nutshell.

Moar terrorists: CEO Of ASG Software Solutions wants workers to vote for Romney if they don't want to be fired

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/14/arthur-allen-romney-email_n_1963965.html

edited 14th Oct '12 5:01:35 PM by NoName999

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#32589: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:12:18 PM

So, that's two now?

Figures.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32590: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:20:14 PM

This should not be fucking legal!

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#32591: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:22:45 PM

I believe that a new President and administration would give US citizens and the world the renewed confidence and optimism we all need to get the global economies started again

Haha, no, the rest of the world hates Romney.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
#32592: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:23:07 PM

Re US Military spending: The numbers are pretty accurate, but they're being interpreted wrongly. The US spends vastly more money on our military than other nations, but there are good reasons for that that are ignored: first, the US is a very large nation, so our proportionate share is not as bad as our absolute share. Second, we have an enormous economy, so our military as a share of our GDP is only about twice that of most other civilized nations. Third, we provide the military backbone of NATO and thus our military protects not only us but also other nations that might otherwise have to maintain larger forces of their own. Fourth, we treat our troops much better than most armies, paying them 10 times what Chinese soldiers make and providing them with massive amounts of benefits.

So all in all, it's not really reasonable to compare spending figures directly.

<><
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#32593: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:24:48 PM

[up][up][up]Uh, it isn't legal. We have laws against voter intimidation for a reason.

edited 14th Oct '12 5:27:00 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#32594: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:29:13 PM

[up]Then why are they doing this? Are they just stupid?

Joesolo Indiana Solo Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
Indiana Solo
#32595: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:31:20 PM

Because they think Screw the Rules, I Have Money! is a thing.

I'm baaaaaaack
darksidevoid Anti-Gnosis Weapon from The Frontiers (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Robosexual
Anti-Gnosis Weapon
#32596: Oct 14th 2012 at 5:34:20 PM

[up][up]They probably believe there's enough uncertainty as to whether this constitutes "voter intimidation" to prevent proper prosecution. That, and they have lots and lots of money and armies of lawyers to defend their interests. Of course, if the relevant legal authorities wanted to demonstrate that they believed in the rule of law, they'd at the very least launch an investigation.

edited 14th Oct '12 5:37:43 PM by darksidevoid

GM: AGOG S4 & F/WC RP; Co-GM: TABA, SOTR, UUA RP; Sub-GM: TTS RP. I have brought peace, freedom, justice, and security to my new Empire.
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#32597: Oct 14th 2012 at 6:00:18 PM

But half of the legal authorities agree with their political stances and think preventing the election of their opponent is a good thing.

It doesn't really matter which party is doing it (though Romney is notoriously pro-rich, so it's currently Republicans). Unless the Greens try to pull this stunt, there's just no way to get them persecuted.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Arkasas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#32598: Oct 14th 2012 at 6:32:03 PM

So.

FiveThirtyEight seems to show Romney's debate bounce eroding, without him ever getting a lead over Obama.

Trivialis Since: Oct, 2011
#32599: Oct 14th 2012 at 6:40:47 PM

Of course he never got a lead. Problem is, about two months ago before the debates/party conventions, those figures used to be about 75% to 25%. Now it's 63.1% to 36.9%.

According to that site, it's -15.3% for Obama in about a week. Just look at how much advantage he lost in October; all the graphs sharply converge that month. Unless the Obama campaign reverses this tend now, the president is at risk.

RealClearPolitics shows that Obama lost almost all leaning states to tossup status, indicating that those states are now doubting their preference to Obama. His advantage hasn't recovered from that yet. Though HuffingtonPost still gives Obama about 50 points lead in electoral votes, 253 not enough to win and according to that map, Romney has far fewer "leans" and many more solids.

edited 14th Oct '12 6:41:12 PM by Trivialis

Arkasas (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#32600: Oct 14th 2012 at 6:58:36 PM

[up]Real Clear Politics (and I quote) was founded by two guys annoyed with the media's anti-conservative and anti-Christian bias. Yeah.

You're right, just wanted to put that out there again.


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