TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325351: Aug 29th 2020 at 8:38:53 AM

The problem isn’t just that the Act isn’t being enforced, it’s that it has no penalties for breaches beyond removal from position. So senior figures who just rotate out after Trump can’t face any actual penalties.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#325352: Aug 29th 2020 at 8:40:15 AM

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 29th 2020 at 11:44:30 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325353: Aug 29th 2020 at 8:42:32 AM

[up][up] Perhaps add a monetary punishment as well, and possibly jail time depending on the severity.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325354: Aug 29th 2020 at 8:43:31 AM

Indeed, just because people disregard the law does not mean we should simply do away with it.

What is clear though that enforcement of the Hatch act is severely flawed, since the sitting administration can effectively let itself off the hook for breaking it. This was of course always an issue, but previous administrations at least had the self restraint to actually follow their own laws, or at least not break them too blatantly.

If we can learn anything from this administration, it is that norms and traditions are not laws, and mean nothing when those in power do not care about upholding them.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325355: Aug 29th 2020 at 8:44:58 AM

[up] So we might need to make those norms and traditions laws/rules that must be followed, depending on how feasible that is for some/most of them.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 29th 2020 at 11:45:23 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325356: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:03:25 AM

Well, that's part of it. Reigning in the power of the executive branch would be a major part as well. But I don't see Biden doing that anytime soon, not with the challenges he will be facing the coming years.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PointMaid Since: Jun, 2014
#325357: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:37:36 AM

The Executive Branch is supposed to be reined in by threat of impeachment by Congress. However, it's been made fairly clear that the current Senate would never vote for removal from office no matter how blatant the crimes.

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325358: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:41:58 AM

[up] It may be time for a change on that. As much as I don't like the thought, I believe we may need to rethink how impeachments work. Just being impeached does nothing. Removal of powers like executive orders upon being impeached however, would be a pretty big punishment for impeachment.

While that could be abused, it also doesn't seriously impede the president's powers. It means a president impeached but not convicted is basically defanged, they can't really do anything that bypasses Congress, reeling them in.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 29th 2020 at 12:42:12 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#325359: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:49:25 AM

I can already see the Republicans salivating at the chance to abuse that.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325360: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:50:35 AM

[up][up]Beyond the dubious constitutionality that sounds risky, remember that being impeached just requires a majority of the House. What happens when a Republican house decides to impeach a Democratic President for violating (their highly partisan) view of the Constitution?

Edit: Lol, a [nja] has striked.


In unrelated news, Biden's campaign has firmly rejected Spencer's endorsement

So much for the tolerant left tongue

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 29th 2020 at 9:55:29 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#325361: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:53:39 AM

Especially since a Republican House would view being a Democrat as violating their view of the Constitution.

So you'd have a House that would A) Be stonewalling any legislation. and B) Defang the president of any power they could use otherwise.

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325362: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:55:58 AM

[up] You mean they didn't do that during Obama's presidency?

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#325363: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:56:58 AM

And it's not like they didn't want to impeach Obama. They just never had a good enough pretext.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325364: Aug 29th 2020 at 9:57:56 AM

[up][up]They did a), your suggestion would allow them to do b) as well. Which... isn't good.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 29th 2020 at 9:58:36 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#325365: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:01:36 AM

If impeachment came with the ability to block executive orders then I doubt they would have waited around for a pretext.

Heck, under this suggestion impeachment would be better for the Republicans than the actual Senate verdict. Guilty or not guilty, you end up with a president, possibly the promoted VP, who has their executive order powers restored. If you keep the impeachment process ongoing then you've screwed the president indefinitely.

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325366: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:07:00 AM

[up], [up][up] So we shouldn't try to fix any problems this administration has caused in the honor system? We shouldn't even try to fix loopholes? That's the impression you're giving me, that we should give up and just let anybody who wants to abuse them, anybody who wants to ignore the honor system, do so. In that particular case then the US is a lost cause, and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. If you're not going to fix the leaky holes in the boat it's going to keep flooding.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 29th 2020 at 1:07:20 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#325367: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:10:20 AM

I think the point being made is we shouldn't go for solutions that are even more easily abuseable than the current problem.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#325368: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:12:36 AM

Right. We have to be exceptionally careful not to create problems that are worse than the ones we're trying to solve.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325369: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:14:03 AM

[up][up] The problem is the fact that short of forcing max term limits (8-12 years maybe) on politicians in the House and Senate, I don't see a solution that can't also be abused.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 29th 2020 at 1:14:17 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#325370: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:16:49 AM

We definitely need to fix the abusive power the Presidency has. However, removing Executive Orders through Impeachment would be a bad idea, especially in the face of a Natural Disaster or a Terrorist Attack.

An idea I do support to reduce the power of the Presidency is that their Cabinet Picks should be subject to the House as well as the Senate; Specifically, the House should be able to remove any Cabinet Executives for any reason. This is how the Radical Republicans were able to Impeach Andrew Johnson, but then it was made Illegal by the Supreme Court. I believe this should be a power that the House has, with or without impeaching the President.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#325371: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:17:09 AM

Term limits don't help either. This has been discussed to death. What they do is creating a revolving door between private and public positions that guarantees:

  • No long-term planning in Congress.
  • Constant influx of newbie legislators who need to learn the system and are easy prey for lobbyists and entrenched bureaucrats.
  • Less incentive to compromise or cross the aisle because you and your opposition will be gone soon enough anyway.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 29th 2020 at 1:18:02 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#325372: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:24:19 AM

I'd like to point out that a lot of the issues we're facing aren't just because of the collapse of traditions and honor systems. We've gotten to where we are because the Congressional Republicans actively refuse to enforce the rules already on the books. The best written constitution with the best checks and balances wouldn't mean squat if the branch that's supposed to be checking the other is saying, "Meh, I don't feel like it."

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#325373: Aug 29th 2020 at 10:27:51 AM

So we shouldn't try to fix any problems this administration has caused in the honor system? We shouldn't even try to fix loopholes? That's the impression you're giving me, that we should give up and just let anybody who wants to abuse them, anybody who wants to ignore the honor system, do so. In that particular case then the US is a lost cause, and needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. If you're not going to fix the leaky holes in the boat it's going to keep flooding

No, what we're saying is that when proposing solutions it's not enough to think how they'll stop a future Trump. We also need to see how Republicans will abuse it and whether or not it will result in more costs than benefits.

Abolishing the filibuster will benefit them, but it will benefit us more thus it's worth it.

Making it so impeachment reduces the powers of the President will benefit us but it will benefit them far more because only one of the two parties wants to get things done and it sure as heck isn't them.

Term limits don't help either. This has been discussed to death. What they do is creating a revolving door between private and public positions that guarantees:

A million times this.

The Political Science profession has decades of data on term limits, they may be superficially logical and attractive but it's just that, superficial. They're bad from every non-corporate POV, and even some corporations might want a legislature that governs effectively.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 29th 2020 at 10:30:20 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#325374: Aug 29th 2020 at 11:14:59 AM

The only thing that will help the American government is removing Republicans en masse.

ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#325375: Aug 29th 2020 at 11:37:44 AM

I think it's a little too late to do that. Out of curiosity, are there any Republicans in this thread?


Total posts: 417,856
Top