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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325251: Aug 27th 2020 at 4:49:26 PM

Yeah, we live in sufficiently volatile times that we can't rule it out entirely.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Voltron64 Since: Jul, 2016
#325252: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:05:14 PM

[up][up]

[up]

Exactly what I was considering...

Edited by Voltron64 on Aug 27th 2020 at 5:10:44 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#325253: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:10:09 PM

in what crazy situation would the national guard turn on the police force?

(they're on the same side practically!)

No there not, the guard are way more professional then the police and each time they have been called in for race riots have actually managed to diffuse the situation and don't just turn on the protestors, some times they even end up joining in with them.

Just because they are more heavily armed then the police doesn't mean they are more brutal then them, and in a way.... That's some how way fucking sadder.

Edited by Imca on Aug 27th 2020 at 5:10:42 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#325254: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:11:04 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2020/08/27/day-1316/

    Day 1316: "This is his America." 

🗳 How To Vote In The 2020 Election In Every State. Everything you need to know about mail-in and early in-person voting in every state in the age of COVID-19, including the first day you can cast your ballot in the 2020 election. (FiveThirtyEight / NBC News / Wall Street Journal)

😷 Dept. of “We Have It Totally Under Control.”

Global: Total confirmed cases: ~24,285,000; deaths: ~829,000

U.S.: Total confirmed cases: ~5,857,000; deaths: ~181,000

Source: Johns Hopkins University

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

💻 COVID-19 Live Blogs: Washington Post / New York Times / CNN

1/ Another 1 million Americans applied for unemployment benefits last week, and an another 608,000 workers applied for aid through the Pandemic Unemployment Assistance program. In total, 27 million workers are unemployed and more than 14.5 million are collecting benefits – up from 1.7 million a year ago. The report also marks the 22nd time in 23 weeks that new jobless claims have come in above 1 million. Before the coronavirus pandemic, initial claims had never topped 700,000 in a week. (CNN / CNBC / Associated Press / Politico / New York Times)

https://apnews.com/383eb8856eda415ed3a3b17894be035f

2/ The CDC attempted to clarify its recommendation that people with no symptoms “do not necessarily need a test” – even after exposure to the coronavirus. In a new statement, the CDC’s director, Dr. Robert Redfield, said that “testing may be considered for all close contacts of confirmed or probable COVID-19 patients.” He added: “Everyone who needs a COVID-19 test, can get a test. Everyone who wants a test does not necessarily need a test.” The CDC’s previous guidance recommended that people exposed to the coronavirus be tested because of the threat of asymptomatic or pre-symptomatic transmission. Despite Redfield’s statement, the CDC’s website had not been updated. (NBC News / New York Times / NBC News / USA Today)

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/fauci-says-he-has-some-concern-about-change-covid-19-n1238208

The Trump administration will purchase 150 million rapid coronavirus tests for about $750 million, which will be deployed in nursing homes, schools and other areas with populations at high risk. Abbott Laboratories received an emergency authorization from the FDA on Wednesday for the test, which costs $5 and can produce results in 15 minutes without the use of any lab equipment. (Reuters / Politico)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-usa-abbott/trump-administration-to-purchase-150-million-abbott-covid-19-tests-for-750-million-idUSKBN25N2NA

3/ Trump – without evidence – claimed that problems with mail-in ballots on Election Day will come from election officials who are “going to count them wrong.” Multiple investigations and studies – including Trump’s own voter fraud investigatory committee – have found no evidence of widespread voter fraud in the U.S. Trump, however, said he’s not worried about USPS’s ability to deliver ballots – “it has nothing to do with the post office” – but rather “The problem is when they dump all these [ballots] in front of a few people who are counting them, and they’re going to count them wrong.” Trump added that the “only thing” he’s worried about is “unsolicited ballots, where they’re going to send 80 million unsolicited ballots to people that they don’t even know if they’re alive or if they’re living there.” Earlier this month, Trump threatened to veto any coronavirus relief package that included funding for the USPS, and baselessly suggested that election drop boxes would lead to widespread fraud. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/trump-says-election-workers-not-usps-could-lead-2020-miscount-n1238387

🌀 Dept. of Political Infomercials. 🐘 Fact-Checking Night 3 of the RNC: CNN / Washington Post

🐘 RNC Night 3 Recaps: Washington Post / CNN / The Guardian / New York Times

🐘 RNC Night 4 Live Blogs: NBC News / New York Times / Washington Post

More than 100 former John McCain staffers endorsed Biden. (New York Times / Politico / Washington Post)

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/playbook/2020/08/27/new-more-than-100-bush-mccain-romney-alums-go-for-biden-490201

The live audience for Trump’s Republican convention address won’t receive coronavirus tests. Instead, guests received instructions that they must wear masks. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/08/27/trump-acceptance-speech-no-testing-403578

Department of Homeland Security sent employees an email advising them not to engage in “partisan political activity,” citing “heightened scrutiny.” The warning comes days after acting DHS Secretary Chad Wolf participated in a naturalization ceremony at the Republican National Convention. (CNN / Politico)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/politics/dhs-hatch-act-rnc

4/ Trump dismissed the NBA player-led protest of the police shooting of Jacob Blake hours after Jared Kushner said the players were “very fortunate” to be “able to take a night off from work.” Trump told reporters that while he doesn’t “know much” about the protest, “I know their ratings have been very bad because I think people are a little tired of the NBA […] They’ve become like a political organization, and that’s not a good thing.” Pence’s chief of staff, Marc Short, meanwhile, called the protests “absurd and silly,” adding “If they want to protest, I don’t think we care.” The comments from the White House come a day after the NBA postponed three scheduled playoff games, prompted by the Milwaukee Bucks’ demanding that lawmakers address police brutality and racial injustice. The unprecedented decision to postpone games was followed by players and teams from the WNBA, MLB, NFL, MLS, and pro tennis sitting out events Wednesday night. Trump has made restoring “law and order” a centerpiece of his campaign following the death of George Floyd, a Black man Minneapolis police killed in late May, which spurred national protests. (ESPN / Washington Post / CNN / Politico / The Hill / Washington Post / CNBC / CNN / Axios / Mediate / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/29752844/mike-pence-chief-calls-nba-protests-absurd-jared-kushner-says-reach-lebron-james

5/ Biden accused Trump of “rooting for more violence, not less” because he thinks it benefits him politically. Biden also suggested that Trump is making the situation worse by “pouring gasoline on the racial flames that are burning […] the people have a right to be angry, people have a right to protest.” He continued: “This is the same guy, when people came out of Charlottesville and a young woman gets killed, they’re spewing hate, and their veins bulging, carrying swastikas […] he says there are very fine people on both sides. He just keeps pouring fuel on the fire. He’s encouraging this.” Biden concluded: “This is his America.” (NBC News / Bloomberg / Politico)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-election/biden-says-trump-rooting-more-violence-not-less-n1238496

Kamala Harris, meanwhile, accused Trump and Republicans of ignoring “the reality” of the “life of a Black person in America.” In a speech to prebut Trump’s appearance at RNC, Harris said Trump’s “reckless disregard for the well-being of the American people” has been deadly. As “Donald Trump stood idly by […] Instead of rising to meet the most difficult moment of his presidency, Donald Trump froze. He was scared and he was petty and vindictive.” (CNN / Politico / Axios)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/politics/kamala-harris-speech/index.html

The RNC aired a video meant to give viewers “a taste of Biden’s America,” but the video included footage from Barcelona, Spain. Other images of protests in the segment included a march in Brooklyn, a car on fire in Chicago, and drone footage of a tree on fire in New York. (BuzzFeed News)

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/rnc-protest-video-barcelona

6/ Lt. Col. Yevgeny Vindman filed a complaint with the Pentagon’s inspector general suggesting he and his brother Alexander was retaliated against for disclosing potential ethics violations by senior White House officials. Alexander Vindman served as a key witness during Trump’s impeachment and was dismissed from his position on the National Security Council in February. Yevgeny Vindman worked as a deputy legal adviser for the NSC and a senior ethics official on the NSC staff. He was also removed after the impeachment proceedings ended. Yevgeny Vindman’s legal team said in a statement that actions were “improperly taken against him in retaliation for his protected disclosures involving matters that ultimately led to the president’s impeachment as well as disclosures of misconduct by other current senior members of the president’s national security team.” (CBS News / Axios)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/yevgeny-vindman-whistleblower-complaint-retaliation-pentagon/

7/ The Trump Organization has charged taxpayers more than $900,000 in fees related to Trump’s 271 visits to his own properties since he took office. At least $570,000 came as a result of Trump’s travel. Campaign finance records also show that the Trump Organization received at least $3.8 million in fees related to 37 instances in which Trump headlined a political event at one of his properties. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-company-secret-service-spending/2020/08/27/9331bd86-de36-11ea-8051-d5f887d73381_story.html

The White House said that it has compiled a “very large” dossier on a Pulitzer Prize-winning Washington Post reporter and others, calling them a “disgrace to journalism and the American people.” In a statement, White House spokesperson Judd Deere accused The Washington Post of “blatantly interfering with the business relationships of the Trump Organization” and demanded “it must stop.” (CNN / Washington Post)

https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/27/media/white-house-dossier-journalists/

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 27th 2020 at 5:16:11 AM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#325255: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:15:13 PM

There is precedent for a standoff between police and military-IIRC, Little Rock 9 was basically that (among other things).

Mind you, I don’t see violence actually happening (or at least it’s unlikely) but I could see major stand offs. Police do not have the equipment to challenge the military by a long shot so any fight would be a curb stomp battle of truly epic proportions. Plus, if they go straight-up rogue, they lose their tax-payer money.

I suppose I could see cops joining actual terrorist organizations and there being isolated instances where a soldier has to subdue a or kill a cop.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325256: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:29:23 PM

Plus, if they go straight-up rogue, they lose their tax-payer money.

Unless they just collect the money they want strait from taxpayers via civil-forfeiture.

You’re right that any standoff would likely result in police standing down, but that assumes a relatively calm situation where people can think, if national guard are given proper orders, and police don’t realise ahead of time, the guard could gatecrash an active brutality situation, and resolve it via force.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 27th 2020 at 12:30:01 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#325257: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:43:27 PM

A scenario where the national guard decide to open fire on police during a police action seems so unlikely I can’t really imagine it happening.

“Shoot any cop you see beating people up” isn’t an order any governor is going to give to their guardsmen. Even if they’re explicitly ordered to insert themselves into those situations, that’s not going to take the form of gunfire. For starters, most guardsmen are competent enough with firearms to know that one of the golden rules of firearm safety is “know your target and what’s beyond it”, and an officer fighting with someone isn’t a situation where you can shoot safely.

Tense standoffs, sure. Combat between police and the guard? Insanely unlikely.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 27th 2020 at 5:44:50 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#325258: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:48:58 PM

@Silasw By "straight-up rogue" I meant an unrealistically extreme example of "they openly declare war on the government body commanding the nation guard".

Having said that, I will admit that violence is somewhat more likely than I originally estimated, and was even going to edit my post before I saw that you already responded. The big factor I could see is the simple fact that police are very protective of each other and Cop-Killers generally get a more rabid response than anyone else. So, hypothetically, if a soldier had to kill an officer, and there was any doubt over whether the soldier was in the legal right, I could see things blowing out of proportion.

Though, overall I think Archon is right in that actual gunfights between the two are pretty unlikely in part because it'd require the soldiers to find themselves in a situation where their best and safest option was to shoot the cops, and where the cops are dumb enough to shoot at actual soldiers.

Leviticus 19:34
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#325259: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:51:21 PM

The cops would have to be the ones who shoot first, and even the most irrationally aggressive officer isn’t going to consciously make a choice to shoot at a guardsman. On accident, maybe, but that would still require a fairly improbable sequence of events to occur.

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325260: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:53:20 PM

Oh yeah you’re much more likely to see bayonet action than shooting. Unless we get something super crazy like a police snipper deciding to see how many protesters they can kill. That or a police cruiser trying to go Charlottesville on protesters.

even the most irrationally aggressive officer isn’t going to consciously make a choice to shoot at a guardsman.

What if the guardsmen pulls him off the black man he’s in the middle of killing? We know how trigger happy many cops are, they could easily respond to being pulled off by shooting blindly at the person pulling them off.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 27th 2020 at 12:57:43 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325261: Aug 27th 2020 at 5:59:09 PM

What if it is a black guardsman? Will they show the same kind of deference then?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325262: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:00:53 PM

I think that national guard uniforms stand out enough that they’ll be seen as green rather than white or black, but it wouldn't be that surprising if I’m wrong.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#325263: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:07:29 PM

“Bayonet action”? That’s even less likely than shooting. It’s a rare day guardsmen even have their bayonets in the field.

This seems like an exercise in schadenfreude more than any kind of realistic assessment of what could happen. I mean, somehow a single guardsman would intervene alone in something and the officer would draw and fire blindly, not realizing who he was? Why is the guardsman there alone? How is the officer shooting behind his back while fighting two or more people?

This whole situation requires the officer to not realize a guard unit is on scene, not realize guardsmen are the one grabbing him, and then somehow not notice these things long enough to draw and fire his weapon at a target he still can’t see.

I fully expect an armed standoff or two before all this is over, but actual combat is implausible in the extreme.

[down] It was considered highly unusual they were even deployed with bayonets at all, and “special” gear like that usually doesn’t make it out onto the street. Nobody wants to be the one who lost their bayonet somehow.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 27th 2020 at 6:15:25 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Imca (Veteran)
#325264: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:12:33 PM

[up] The gaurds are actualy told to bring there bayonets with them when they go to stuff like this, they had them last time as well... Most just keep them stored in there packs because agian there more professional then cops and they were smart enough to realise the optics of trying to diffuse the situation with bayonets mounted.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325265: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:15:15 PM

That was just me finding a glib term for melee combat, you’re right that actual fixing of bayonets would be very strange.

It comes down to what situations actually happen. A lone officer beating someone could be resolved with some manhandling. But a line of officers firing blindly at a crowd of unarmed protesters (already done with less-leathal munitions)? Or a police cruiser being driven at a crowd so as to run people over (I know there was an incident with the NYPD)? They seem harder to resolve without the use of weaponry.

If the police try to have their own version of Bloody Sunday and the guard are ordered to stop them it would be very messy.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 27th 2020 at 1:17:12 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#325266: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:17:46 PM

For what it's worth, I do think Archon is right that we're imagining the scenario is more of an exercise in schadenfreude. Having said that, I do consider the idea vaguely interesting in a weird (not even schadenfruede-y, but more Cool Versus Awesome) sense.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Aug 27th 2020 at 6:18:09 AM

Leviticus 19:34
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325267: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:22:48 PM

The fact remains that the US police is completely out of control. As mentioned above, the police have already performed actions on protesters that would have been considered unthinkable not all that long ago (driving cruisers into crowds, for instance).

This could go very badly under the wrong circumstances.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Shaoken (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Dating Catwoman
#325268: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:28:06 PM

The most likely scenario would be something like some Guardsmen breaking up an instance of police brutality that escalates, but that's still dependent on people making a string of poor choices to lead into lethal force being thrown around.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#325269: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:30:25 PM

[up][up][up][up] I can see guardsmen scuffling with officers here and there if they’re given specific orders to stop brutality, maybe. Even that doesn’t seem like it would be too common. That would necessitate the guardsmen already being at the scene, and they don’t usually chase police radios.

As far as those two scenarios, see “know your target and what’s beyond it” above. Opening fire on a vehicle driving through a crowd or a group of officers standing near a crowd is also opening fire on a crowd. Unlike police, who are known to strike bystanders with incautious gunfire, guardsmen are proficient enough with firearms to know that’s a bad idea.

I’d also point out that the prevalence and effectiveness of modern crowd-control weapons make a shooting response less likely from either side. We have a lot of very effective tools for subduing or breaking up groups at range these days.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 27th 2020 at 6:32:41 AM

They should have sent a poet.
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#325270: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:32:47 PM

[up][up] So in other words, it would require the police acting like they usually do.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 27th 2020 at 9:33:14 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325271: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:46:18 PM

We have a lot of very effective tools for subduing or breaking up groups at range these days.

That’s requires the intent to be to subdue and not simply to kill. That may not be the intent of everyone in all scenarios.

Still I get your point, if we do see a police line start shooting protesters the national guard would be likely to stop them via tear gas, not traditional bullets.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325272: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:47:10 PM

Yes, and that's not even accounting for Trump egging them on against the inevitable protests after the elections. Depending on how they go, it could get very ugly.

Edited by Redmess on Aug 27th 2020 at 3:47:23 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#325273: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:48:23 PM

All of this requires a governor to be willing to have national guard protect protesters from the police, which so far none of them have been willing to order.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#325274: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:52:03 PM

I am kind of afraid of a huge outburst of right-wing violence if Biden wins.

Do not obey in advance.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#325275: Aug 27th 2020 at 6:53:10 PM

True, but once Trump's unmarked militiamen start showing up, they might well change their mind, especially if Biden calls it out.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times

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