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Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324951: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:41:03 AM

Not really, fascists clearly overlap with right wing, conservative politics because fascism is, by definition, a conservative movement that values hierarchy over equality.

You can read Umberto Eco's theory on Ur-fascim for more.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324952: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:42:32 AM

Yes, which is actually why I challenge that as it's a reactionary atavistic revolutionary ideology. It's like labeling anarchists as left wing. Yes, we have a lot of overlap but it's it's own thing.

But I am shooting myself in the foot by arguing definitions when my point is talking about the definition as anything other than itself is probably a bad idea.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 25th 2020 at 5:43:35 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#324953: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:49:16 AM

Watch this space, folks.

There is a good chance that in a few days Hurricane Laura will roar into Texas as a major hurricane. Some folks are already expecting a repeat of the Great Galveston Hurricane.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324954: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:50:56 AM

But you are arguing from a moral standpoint, not a political one. Saying "fascists are too evil for political labels" is a moral argument, but it says nothing about their actual politics. And fascists are politically conservative, that's just in their nature. A fascist liberal is an oxymoron, politically speaking.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#324955: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:55:01 AM

I agree, it's like saying "Right-wing Communist".

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#324956: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:56:42 AM

Re: Spencer: Nobody brought up the other theory? That he's wanting to "join" the Democratic party so that right wingers can point to this and say "See that? The Dems are so desperate to boost their numbers they're even letting in a Neo-Nazi!" Nevermind that the Biden campaign rejected his endorsement but that's still what will be claimed in some circles.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#324957: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:58:20 AM

I mean we can argue the left can get genocidal and all(see my country) and use many fascist like tactics but yeah facism as we know it is pretty right

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#324958: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:58:40 AM

Idiots like Dinesh D'Souza are already crying "Win!", while ignoring off course that Trump has done nothing to denounce people like David Duke, who has once again endorsed him.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324959: Aug 25th 2020 at 5:59:07 AM

I agree, it's like saying "Right-wing Communist".

Actually, that was what I was thinking given that there are authoritarian conservative communist nations now.

looks over at China

looks over at North Korea

Am I wrong?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 25th 2020 at 5:59:55 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#324960: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:05:45 AM

I think it is unreasonable to make absolute statements about right- vs. left-wing politics and their respective levels of statism, oppression, and body counts. It is true that left-wing movements tend to frame themselves as "revolutionary" and thus justified in response to the right-wing status quo, but that does not make them inherently any more moral.

I hate judging things in terms of broad categories. They aren't helpful.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324961: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:06:07 AM

The ideology is definitely left wing, but you could probably argue that its leadership is, in practice, conservative, because that is required to maintain their highly hierarchical and exclusionary power structure. A dictator will always tend towards conservatism, because that is how they preserve their absolute power.

[up] Oh, I'm not saying that there are no immoral leftists, but you simply cannot run an authoritarian regime on a progressive agenda. This is likely where the horseshoe theory of politics comes in, where the extremes of left and right tend to be more similar than their more moderate forms.

Edited by Redmess on Aug 25th 2020 at 3:08:35 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#324962: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:12:47 AM

Am I wrong?

Considering how it's been put into doubt that either can still be classified as communist - kinda?

Also correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that moving away from what this thread's about?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 25th 2020 at 3:13:25 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324963: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:16:52 AM

Sure, sure.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324964: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:20:52 AM

Yes, which is actually why I challenge that as it's a reactionary atavistic revolutionary ideology. It's like labeling anarchists as left wing. Yes, we have a lot of overlap but it's it's own thing.

But most anarchist strains are left wing.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#324965: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:28:03 AM

Inasmuch as they subscribe to the left-right dichotomy, anyway.

i'm tired, my friend
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#324966: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:32:00 AM

Anarchism is not in and of itself a left-right thing. Hardcore libertarians are strongly allied with the right even as they disavow statism.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324967: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:34:54 AM

Anarchists are directly opposed to fascists. Fascists value absolute hierarchies, with an absolute leadership at the top, which in practice means an all-encompassing government structure. Anarchists, in contrast, are very much against hierarchy and government control.

Anarchists and fascists are natural enemies, much the same way as communists and fascists are.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324968: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:38:01 AM

[up][up] I said most. And there's obviously a fundamental disagreement between anarcho-capitalists and everyone else. It has quite a lot of writing about whether that even counts as anarchism. [lol]

Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#324969: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:38:41 AM

[up][up]I am highly tempted to make the Simpsons joke bit about Scots hating everyone, but I can't think of enough political beliefs to do it.

Edited by Resileafs on Aug 25th 2020 at 9:38:52 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324970: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:42:47 AM

Anarchists are the natural enemy of capitalists...

And fascists....

and authoritarian communists...

And other anarchists!

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 25th 2020 at 6:43:00 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324971: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:46:18 AM

Well, that's what you get when you want to do away with the very idea of hierarchy and leadership itself. Every anarchist is naturally inclined to disavow following anyone else, and so are naturally hostile to everyone they perceive as "telling them what to believe and do".

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#324972: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:46:29 AM

[up][up]And pretty much everyone to their right. Including other leftists.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 25th 2020 at 9:49:10 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324973: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:47:21 AM

An anarchist organisation is just as much an oxymoron as a liberal fascist.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#324974: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:51:06 AM

You can absolutely be organized without it being strictly hierarchal. Organizations are not inherently hierarchal, and a lot of anarchists who are not completely dogmatic Knight Templars about it will tolerate a small degree of hierarchy as long as it's informal or at least less than our current highly hierarchal structure. But this discussion is starting to veer into General Politics material.

Liberal fascist is an oxymoron because fascism is inherently and explicitly opposed to representative democracy and electoralism which are key components of liberalism.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 25th 2020 at 9:52:33 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324975: Aug 25th 2020 at 6:53:28 AM

Hierarchy in any form is evil and should be abolished.

Indeed, all evil derives from hierarchy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 25th 2020 at 6:54:04 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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