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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#324726: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:17:00 PM

[up][up] State driven moonshots in BioPharma have a bad history of setting the field through unintended consequences of centralized state driven models. The poster child for this is the war on cancer, which set back the field by decades by channeling all efforts into a handful of low hanging fruit approaches rather than more fundamental questions that didn't offer immediate results. Right now a lot of the innovation in BioPharma is happening at start ups, and part of that comes down to sheer weight of numbers. For many indications, the failure rate for drug development approach 95%, so having 20 different companies working on 20 different approaches gives you much better odds than 5 big companies or 1 government agency working on 2-3 different approaches.

[up] The NIH is the dominant source of funding for basic and early preclinical research, the problem is the most costly part of translation is clinical trials, and for new drugs that work largely falls on the private sector. That "Valley of Death" between basic/preclinical and clinical development is part of the reason* why you hear about dozens of potential cures for (a very specific kind of) cancer each year in mice but rarely hear about new, life changing cancer drugs being approved by the FDA.

Anyway, my point is that many of the proposed approaches for addressing high drug costs are likely to cause pharmaceuticals companies to double down on the things that people hate about the pharmaceuticals industries. My preference would be policies making it easier for smaller companies (where most of the innovation happens) to survive instead of everything getting bought out by the top 5 largest companies in the field.

* Another contributor is that mice aren't tiny humans.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 21st 2020 at 10:37:16 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#324727: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:36:37 PM

That still suggests that perhaps pharmaceutical development and production should not be left to the market.

Not to mention that your previous proposal of making programs to encourage healthier habits would need its own vast dedications of resources and changes to a number different industries and systems Americans take for granted to have any decent effect. And even if these programs were successful, the availability of affordable and pharmaceuticals for all sorts of conditions would still be a necessity, so we are back to square one.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#324728: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:45:08 PM

I'm the conservative here, and even I think the government should be used to, at the very least, assist R&D with medical technology. It benefits everyone and isn't necessarily something specific companies should be asked to do entirely on their own.

Leviticus 19:34
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#324729: Aug 21st 2020 at 7:46:40 PM

[up][up] Again, the government directly running things in house has historically come with the unintended consequence of funneling efforts towards a handful of low hanging fruits. A large number of competing approaches is very much a good thing in this field; a handful of giant companies or one or two government agencies tends to result in fewer approaches being pursued, so this is in part a problem of oligopoly power.

Considering many of them aren't even American, outright dismantling the multinational pharmaceuticals isn't something US policymakers can do. I think the best solution would be policies to make the sector less inhospitable for small and medium sized companies; right now most of the successful startups end up getting bought out by one of the giants who are increasingly "outsourcing" their own in-house R&D to biotech companies by just buying the tall poppies. The handful that aren't absorbed into one of the multinationals are just one failed clinical trial away from buckling. Conditional government funding to support clinical research and offset the risk of failure for small/medium sized companies in the sector would go a long way to making the sector less prone to oligopolies, which is another major cause of high drug prices.


[up] I agree.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 21st 2020 at 11:00:14 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#324730: Aug 21st 2020 at 11:00:34 PM

Internal USPS memo appears to contradict postmaster general's testimony

https://www.salon.com/2020/08/21/internal-usps-memo-appears-to-contradict-postmaster-generals-testimony/

    An Excerpt 
Salon has obtained internal U.S. Postal Service documents that appear to contradict Postmaster General Louis DeJoy's congressional testimony on Friday, in which he told a Senate panel under oath that he was not cutting employee overtime.

The memo, which was provided by a manager to rank-and-file employees, appears to confirm reports that under DeJoy the agency is implementing policies aimed at dramatically curtailing the opportunity for worker overtime, to the point that the memo says flatly on its first page: "Overtime will be eliminated."

Sen. Gary Peters, D-Mich., asked DeJoy whether he had taken steps to "eliminate" or "curtail" overtime. DeJoy said no.

"We never eliminated overtime," DeJoy said. When Peters asked whether it had been curtailed, Dejoy replied, "It's not been curtailed by me or the leadership team."

The content of the internal USPS document obtained by Salon, titled "PMGs expectations and plan," appears to match a memo that was reported by the Washington Post last month. Salon has not yet confirmed whether this is the same document.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 21st 2020 at 11:01:46 AM

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#324732: Aug 21st 2020 at 11:44:07 PM

I wish I could say that surprises me, living here, but it doesn't...

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324733: Aug 21st 2020 at 11:52:38 PM

Well, that seems like a great way to drag something to the Supreme Court as a violation of the first amendment. "Protest on our property and we will remove your right to vote".

Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#324734: Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:10:10 AM

Well I think the idea is to interfere with the election long before the court battle reaches the Supreme Court.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324735: Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:36:57 AM

It's Tennessee. From an electoral perspective this is pure Dick Dastardly Stops to Cheat.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#324736: Aug 22nd 2020 at 8:06:54 AM

There are apparently idiots who think that if Biden wins the Senate will by default flip as well. That's not the case.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#324737: Aug 22nd 2020 at 8:22:44 AM

Cut into pharmaceuticals profits and what gets slashed isn't marketing budgets its R&D., ie me.

Which is absurd on its face, because the US and New Zealand are the only countries in the entire world that allow prescription drug ads to air. Unless you're referring more to the lobbying wing that's active in hospitals and courts doctors to prescribe their drug more, which also carries some decidedly negative consequences (see: the current opioid addiction epidemic).

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324738: Aug 22nd 2020 at 8:22:52 AM

I don't think it will happen by default but I think there's a decent chance it will because a lot of voters know Trump and the Senate are both problems.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#324739: Aug 22nd 2020 at 8:30:59 AM

In politics, there is no such thing as a perfect solution. Unsurprisingly government management of research is no exception. But the drawback of our current market-driven approach seems to be that little to no new drugs because R&D is rarely a profitable endeavor. I cannot imagine a theoretical drop in efficiency being worse then that.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#324740: Aug 22nd 2020 at 8:41:28 AM

[up]

There are times I really, really hate capitalism, especially the brand practiced by the US, in which short-term profits are routinely valued more highly than long-term gains and sustainability, to the point that posting record profits can cause a stock's value to drop if the projected profits were even higher. I genuinely wonder if simply doing away with the stock market would mitigate that type of idiocy, but I'm sure some new type of idiocy would crop up in its place.

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:44:27 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#324741: Aug 22nd 2020 at 9:17:57 AM

[up] I would say halt all stocks for X amount of time while regulations come into place and after the first year so the stock market cannot crash from losses, and then pull it back up after all the regulations and heavy taxes are in place so estimated profits are far lower than before across the board. This of course does not take into account all the intricacies of how the stock market works both nationally and globally.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324742: Aug 22nd 2020 at 9:29:03 AM

It should be noted of course that R&D budgets only form a tiny amount of the expenditures of pharmaseutical costs. Also, a huge chunk of the R&D budgets are spent on figuring out how to make more profitable rather than more effective drugs.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#324743: Aug 22nd 2020 at 9:35:38 AM

I am starting to think that these discussions are more philosophical/economical than political (and thus offtopic for this thread).

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#324744: Aug 22nd 2020 at 10:39:47 AM

[up][up]

Including ways to extend the patent on the drug (through finding a new use for it or adding a new ingredient) to keep it proprietary - and thus, profitable.

In more immediate political news, apparently the RNC (or more specifically, Trump) are still insistent on having an in-person convention, so it'll be interesting to see the news two weeks later and learn how many got infected with COVID-19.

And, naturally... Events in the capitol will be centered on the Andrew W Mellon Auditorium, which will have a reduced capacity due to social distancing concerns. The venue is close to Trump’s Washington hotel, which is expected to act as a social hub, netting income for the family business. Because of course Trump wants to make a profit from it.

[up]

Except economics can be pretty closely tied with politics, as both present knock-on effects to the other.

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 22nd 2020 at 1:54:03 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#324745: Aug 22nd 2020 at 10:45:32 AM

[up] This gives me evil thoughts that shall not be repeated here. But who all gets it will be interesting to see.

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
AngrokVa indighost from america, unfortunately Since: Feb, 2012 Relationship Status: Saddled with unnecessary feelings
indighost
#324746: Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:09:00 AM

[up] Same here.

[down][down] Lol.

Edited by AngrokVa on Aug 22nd 2020 at 2:39:36 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#324747: Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:18:18 AM

Thirded

i'm tired, my friend
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#324748: Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:20:00 AM

I imagine certain newspapers already have the headline ready,you know,just in case

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#324749: Aug 22nd 2020 at 11:56:16 AM

All I can say is, I hope that Darwin is ready to do some serious making up for lost time.

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#324750: Aug 22nd 2020 at 12:01:00 PM

[up] et. al - while it'd be immensely satisfying to see Trump fall ill from the same virus he's continually downplayed, we should also be wary of the possibility of falling afoul of Don't Create a Martyr, as you know the QAnon bullshit would go into overdrive about how the Deep State assassinated him, likely pointing at the Putin political opponent who just got poisoned.

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 22nd 2020 at 3:04:33 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"

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