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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324401: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:38:43 PM

How about starting by making sure your party actually thinks you can represent all of it.

The whole "you can push the party leftwards!" spiel is sounding less and less convincing since apparently it seems that we're just going to parade around a bunch of people who spent their carriers and in some cases their post careers going after some part of this supposedly diverse tent or another.

There are some things more important than making numbers go up as high as possible.

Edit: According to this, Ocasio-Cortez did indeed endorse Biden before the convention.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:40:03 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324402: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:44:23 PM

I think by ticket he means "Biden AND Harris".

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#324403: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:45:34 PM

"There are some things more important than making numbers go up as high as possible."

No, there actually isn't anything more important than winning. We have to stop inculcating a loser culture in the left. If you're not winning at the ballot box, you're worthless. It's as simple as that.

The point isn't to negate a leftward move. The party has already done that. The Democrats are far more homogeneously progressive than in 2008, the last time we weren't defending an incumbent. The point is to depoliticize opposing Trump. We're already living in a situation where the diehards think that the pandemic killing them is a conspiratorial lie of the Left, and even the moderates and independents are hardwired to view any opposition to Trump as being partisan screeching.

Trump is a threat to all Americans and all of America, but for those that are waiting to be convinced, AOC, Bernie, or whoever aren't necessarily the people to do that bit of essential truth-telling and necessarily have it stick. We need to divert some of those votes if we're going to win. And parading around people who are more like them is part of how it's done.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:49:23 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324404: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:48:07 PM

If you're not winning at the ballot box, you're worthless. It's as simple as that.

No.

Electoralism is not the end all and be all of activism. There is no "You Win!" screen for winning an election. The point is to make things better, and by watering yourself down in the name of getting as many votes as possible, you dilute that and risk losing sight of your morals.

Like human rights, environmental protection, hell, economic justice. You got to make a stand, or else your victory is hollow.

And no, the Democrats are not homogenously progressive. I can run through so many names of Democrats who are more than willing to throw trans people or black people or gay people or disabled people etc for power.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:52:12 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#324405: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:48:59 PM

Anyone seriously committed to voting for Biden probably isn't going to 180 just because AOC was highlighted at a convention.

i'm tired, my friend
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324406: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:50:22 PM

It's a binary choice in a presidential election.

It boils down to this: how much can you afford to lean into ideology without losing? Because if you lose, that's four more years of political appointments and the active arm of government going against you. The US executive is grossly over-endowed with power.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#324407: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:53:16 PM

"Electoralism is not the end all and be all of activism. There is no "You Win!" screen for winning an election. The point is to make things better, and by watering yourself down in the name of getting as many votes as possible, you dilute that and lose sight of your morals."

God, I wish you could spend one day in a world where all nine Supreme Court Justices were conservatives, just to experience the actual ends of that kind of thinking.

We live in a democratic society, genius. If you want to enact policy, you win elections. What rock have you been living under to seriously type that nonsense?

"And no, the Democrats are not homogenously progressive. I can run through so many names of Democrats who are more than willing to throw trans people or black people or gay people or disabled people etc for power."

I said "far more than in 2008." Which is unquestionably true. Honestly, did you even read the whole paragraph?

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:54:29 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324408: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:54:07 PM

[up] One where I've been present at meetings where activists pushed councils and officials to enact legislation to help people.

Seriously, I didn't say you need to lose elections, I said you don't need to sacrifice your morals to run up the numbers higher and higher.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:54:50 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#324409: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:54:24 PM

The convention isn't really for people who are committed to vote for Biden, aside from enjoying the speeches and pretty music. It's flash and dazzle for the swing voters and non-voters to get them to come to our side.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#324410: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:55:52 PM

[up][up]You can't actually do that if you lose every election except places where your pet progressives are shoe-ins.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#324411: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:57:23 PM

Folks, turn it down a notch. You're on the same side. Especially you, Zephyr. We already had two people suspended today for needless hostility.

Edited by Parable on Aug 18th 2020 at 9:59:08 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324412: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:57:33 PM

[up][up] Yes, I did read the whole paragraph.

And you seriously think I've never seen legislation that actively hurt people around me passed before!?

[up] Wait what!? (0_0

What did I miss? DM me if you do respond please.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:58:14 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#324413: Aug 18th 2020 at 9:59:10 PM

Yeah, I'm curious about suspensions too.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#324414: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:01:22 PM

All right, we can move on. I'm sorry for coming off as so hostile.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#324415: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:01:45 PM

The sad fact is that there is a tightrope to walk. All the most progressive beliefs in the world mean little if you can't get elected in the first place. That said, there are ways to move a party in one direction over another, which is what has been happening with Biden's campaign, but it does require a more incremental approach.

For all his moderacy, isn't Biden's campaign pretty well left of where he's reputed to normally be? And hasn't that been the influence of folks like Sanders and the Squad?

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#324416: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:14:26 PM

The benefit is that once we get Biden into the White House, that's an executive branch that will be at least willing to listen to more progressive ideas, and work with Senators and Congresspeople who want to push harder left than the party average. With Biden in the Oval Office, we can float bills that will actually stand a chance of being passed without having to pass through Donald's tiny little hands (if we can get them past McConnell), we can finally let RBG retire, and many more possibilities open up.

Biden's presidency isn't going to be a panacea, but Bernie's wasn't going to be either. All it does is give us an open field to work in, and removes the massive roadblock that is Trump and his malice. It's not the end-all, but it is a necessary first step - and it's important that that first step be as stable as possible, so we can actually get there, and then plan our next move from there.

It's been fun.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324417: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:15:07 PM

[up][up] I mean, people keep saying that, and then you get news that divesting from fossil fuels is getting swept off the platform and unrepentant Right Wingers are headlining the convention.

That's the point - is he actually that progressive, or is he just going to drop the act the moment its convenient?

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:17:00 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324418: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:15:21 PM

Biden is doing much-much better than I expected courting the Left vote and taking advantage of the fact that Bernie and the Squad moved it significantly Leftward. He didn't have to and won a primary victory by a margin that said there is a vast mandate that does not give a shit about what I believe or wants it.

The American people don't want Bernie or Warren but Biden is more than "Not Trump."

So Biden has done much better than Hillary (and I voted for her too).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2020 at 10:15:52 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#324419: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:19:46 PM

[up][up]Biden will probably sign anything a Democratic Congress hands him. And you might be putting too much stock in symbolic gestures as being indicators of policy. Like, the real Republicans? They know Biden won't actually be able to successfully work with Republicans during his term. They know that Biden will be immediately at loggerheads with them in 2021 if he wins. They're not fooled by this shit. But moderates eat it up.

This is part of the pantomime of electioneering.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:21:09 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#324420: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:19:48 PM

[up][up][up]I'm not really sure it's fair to attribute either of those things to Biden, personally.

I question calling what he's doing an act, since he was the favorite to win the nomination pretty much from inception, and the way this whole thing is going, I don't know if someone would really just lie about a bunch of stuff they don't mean when they already have a pretty good shot at winning.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 18th 2020 at 12:20:11 PM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#324421: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:26:50 PM

I find the thing with the platform more weird than anything else since both Biden and Harris have both made plans for decoupling from fossil fuels and ending subsidies. I suspect this has to do with not scaring off Pennsylvania voters, but I can't be sure.

The reason I find it more weird than concerning is that very rarely to people really care what the platform says over what the candidate says. It's a decent enough indicator of what the party wants to present, but they're more a relic of the smoke filled rooms selecting the candidate than anything else. In modern times policy is going to be set by the president, and they've never let the platform constrict them.

And let's be honest, how many of us ever read the platform?

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324422: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:28:58 PM

Uh, I have.

Also, last election season a big deal was made about how the platform being more progressive was a sign that the President was going to be more progressive. So...

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:29:25 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#324423: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:30:44 PM

We can't really say how that would have gone, though, since Trump won.

Edited by RedSavant on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:30:47 PM

It's been fun.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#324424: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:32:07 PM

Neeeeeeeeeeeeerd. tongue

More importantly, Kasich is brought out to appeal to fence sitting Republicans. Elizabeth Warren gets patched in to Biden at least once a week to discuss economic policy. If the situation was reversed, then I'd be concerned.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324425: Aug 18th 2020 at 10:34:24 PM

[up] What can I say? I was bored one evening and decided to read through both the Democrat and Republican platforms. (^_^

For the record, the Democrats need to write their platform in something that isn't dryer than half the history books I've read. The Republicans need to find their conscience, but the writing style was fine.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 18th 2020 at 1:36:56 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer

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