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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#324076: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:16:53 AM

It also explains that, while conservative voters would like to be rich, they're perfectly content with simply occupying the second rung in the hierarchy. They may not be Kings, but there's pride in being a Knight.

Basically that Lyndon Johnson quote: "If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 17th 2020 at 8:17:02 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324077: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:22:57 AM

[up][up][up] Well said. This is why I feel we should not stigmatize all people who voted for Trump, and try to reach out and rehabilitate them. Sure, some will be too far gone, but I find it hard to believe that every person who voted for Trump is a total lost cause.

Maybe that makes me a terrible idealistic optimist, but I feel the alternative would be worse in the long run. Letting conservatives fester in their right wing bubbles will just make them worse.

If we can get the Nazi out of the Germans, surely we can get the Trump out of Republicans?

[up][up] Indeed, entire social classes have prided themselves on serving nobility. In England, a butler is practically the lord of the house staff.

Edited by Redmess on Aug 17th 2020 at 5:26:16 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#324078: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:25:26 AM

If we can get the Nazi out of the Germans, surely we can get the Trump out of Republicans?

Theoretically possible, but right now the needed political power to do everything that would require is not present.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#324079: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:25:53 AM

[up][up]And here we go with the "bothsides" again...

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#324080: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:26:45 AM

> If we can get the Nazi out of the Germans, surely we can get the Trump out of Republicans?

I believe you've asked this before,if so here's the same answer "No,we had to literally fight Nazi Germany and utterly defeat them before Nazism stop looking so appealing,getting the Republicans to kick their Trump habit is not comparable"

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#324081: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:27:22 AM

Seriously Redmess, you do realize your analogy basically argues for a civil war, right?

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:29:06 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#324082: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:28:54 AM

[up]x5 Be Careful What You Wish For. De-Nazification was a long, arduous process on both sides of the Iron Curtain, and arguably a failure. The '68 Protests and the lead up to the German Autumn were in part because the failures of the program left unrepentant Nazis in high positions, and that the West German government was more interested in cracking down on Socialist students than it was actually dealing with the still very real Nazi issue.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:29:18 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#324083: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:28:57 AM

The USPS sabotage also means some people aren't receiving medicine on time. Before this, it was so perfectly reliable that it could be relied upon for timely supply of prescriptions.

RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#324084: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:28:59 AM

I should mention that quite a few reluctant Trump voters have already regretted their decision and will choose to vote Democrat, at least for now. Those who stayed on ship probably aren't the kind that can be coerced out of loyalty to Trump that easily, if at all.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324085: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:30:02 AM

I don't think Civil War is necessary or desirable but arresting and imprisoning large numbers of Republican leadership for the actual criminal activities they've done is desirable.

The Governor of Georgia should never spend another night of his life free for what he did in that election. Stealing an election should be a life sentence worthy offense.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#324086: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:37:47 AM

Cultists rarely if ever recognize that they're in a cult of their own volition. Deprogramming Trumpists into bog-standard Republicans may be possible, but only once the Cult of Trump itself no longer exists. Which basically means when Trump dies from being Really Fucking Old, because there is no way to beat him so soundly that he becomes obscure; even if defeated, he'll still be there.

Once Trump isn't a factor, there is a chance that some Trumpists may wake up and go, "Wait, WTF have I been doing these last x years?" and return to conventional Republican ideology.

But conventional Republican ideology is still a problem. Standard Republicans aren't the good alternative to Trump Republicans. They're bad. He's just worse, because he says the quiet parts out loud. Even when those people stop calling Obama the n-word in public, they'll still be thinking it and they'll still be saying it in private.

Do not make the mistake of seeing Donald Trump as the Final Boss Fight of American democracy. Republicans like Mitch McConnell or Chuck Grassley or Matt Gaetz will still be here when Trump's gone, and the fight will continue. Because, at the end of the day, we are in the midst of a political tug-of-war over a question that was there from the formation of our Union and has never been decisively answered in two and a half centuries: is the United States a democracy? And are all people within it equal?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 17th 2020 at 8:38:48 AM

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Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#324087: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:45:15 AM

@M84: If you want to fundamentally defeat American Reactionary thought in the public realm that can not be done without some drastic action.

Even accepting the historical facts the USA's territorial gains are fundamentally based on genocide, that much of the nation's early economic infrastructure (and even some now) was constructed by enslaved labor, that many early English colonist were religious fundamentalists who's beliefs still linger to this day, and that the Confederacy was essentially a proto-fascist organization would be seen as dangerous radicalism.

In the face of such ideological fundamentalism you can not expect to win in the "marketplace of ideas" with winning and exercising political power to promote your ideas over your opponents, something that the Democrats have never been keen on doing, partially because they do not want to accept those facts either for pragmatic or ideological reasons.

Even if you don't want a Civil War (and really whop does), you can not discount that this is a struggle for political power and if your opponent is willing to wield it against you then you must be willing to do so in kind.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#324088: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:46:51 AM

[up]And when did I say this was not the case?

My point was that the Nazi analogy is not a particularly good one if the intention was to argue that we should play nice and reach out to Trumpists.

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:48:35 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324089: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:47:32 AM

Well, what else would you propose we do about them M84?

And what do you mean by bothsiding?

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#324090: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:48:48 AM

[up]You're once again insinuating that it's on us to reach out to Trumpists, and that not doing so means we're culpable in the current state of the USA.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#324091: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:54:54 AM

An easy way to fix the problem, send everybody who was performing illegal violations of human rights (meaning Trump's entire administration, ICE, bunch of people in high positions who were condoning this crap) to The Hague. Have them tried in International Court. And yes, I know we have a law against that, but it's a law that should not be followed.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:55:11 AM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#324092: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:55:35 AM

There's not much of a realistic short-term solution to "dealing with Trump" voters because what Trump represents is something much older and deeply baked into US society. Even if Trump loses they aren't going to stop supporting reactionary and anti-democratic political ideals. There's also no real way for conciliation to be had exactly because what they want is fundamentally bad, you can't meet terrible ideas halfway.

The only real solution is to try and do one's best to try and move the overton window gradually in the long term so that their ideology becomes less politically palatable and thusly they begin to have less influence, along with implementing structural changes that remove their entrenched advantages in the political system. You can't do much about the fact they exist but you can at least minimize the harm they do.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:58:24 AM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#324093: Aug 17th 2020 at 8:58:01 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] I thought you were implying that we could not treat this as the political conflict it is.

[up][up][up][up]Recognize that the Republican Party is at the very least Fascist-sympathetic if not out and out Fascist, and take an Anti-Fascist stance against them.

Until the Republican Party at the very least stops being Fascist-Sympathetic then they should be recognized and treated as enemies of the American people, and honestly probably the world as a whole.

Edited by Mio on Aug 17th 2020 at 11:59:46 AM

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324094: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:01:44 AM

But to move the Overton window, you will have to convince conservatives to become more progressive. I'm not saying you should meet them in the middle, but that you should convince them to move more to the left.

M84, I'm not insinuating anything. Please stop yelling "bothsider" at every post I make, it's not helping.

[up] Then you are basically suggesting the Republican party should be made illegal, just like the Nazi party was. I don't think Democrats will go that far. They don't even seem to be that willing to call them fascists or Nazis.

Edited by Redmess on Aug 17th 2020 at 6:03:45 PM

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#324095: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:03:51 AM

Trump needs to go to jail.

So do his cronies.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#324096: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:03:59 AM

I mean reaching out can work, there have been multiple cases of racists being convinced by people after they sat down and talked, but we are not oblidged to do it.

As for the Republican Party, if there is not some major switch of platforms, like the Dems had in the 60s, it's going to be hard to redeem the party as a whole.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#324097: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:04:02 AM

But to move the Overton window, you will have to convince conservatives to become more progressive. I'm not saying you should meet them in the middle, but that you should convince them to move more to the left.

No, you focus on the people who don't have a strong opinion one way or the other because they're likely more receptive to what you have to say and therefore a better use of your time.

Redmess Redmess from Netherlands Since: Feb, 2014
Redmess
#324098: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:07:20 AM

[up][up] I am not saying you are obliged to it, but I think it is important to keep an open mind towards it. Redemption should always be an option.

Hope shines brightest in the darkest times
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#324099: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:10:39 AM

Redemption doesn't magically undo all the harm they they either directly or indirectly caused, though. And it certainly isn't any kind of guarantee that they won't turn around and do the same shit all over again.

Edited by Reflextion on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:12:36 PM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#324100: Aug 17th 2020 at 9:11:06 AM

The problem with what you're saying is that it comes across as misplaced relative to the conversation and putting the focus on the wrong thing. There's a difference between accepting that people can change and trying to be an active catalyst towards that change. People have to want to change. Some people can come around with the right approach and support and while that is a worthwhile endeavor, it's both not something that everyone is safe to do in this instance (really it should mostly be done by white people) and not a realistic long-term solution to the problem that roughly half of the country is ok with Trump and the GOP perverting democracy and implementing terrible policies.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Aug 17th 2020 at 12:11:38 PM


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