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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#322951: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:01:48 AM

The Democrats are stronger than the Republican because they're not in lockstep. We work to better ourselves.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322952: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:02:37 AM

Despite multiple people recognizing the warning signs and saying "let's avoid derailing into Musk", that's what's happening. Stop.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322953: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:03:24 AM

I'm defending the ability TO criticise Tesla. What you appear to be demanding is that every other aspect of left-wing thought be abandoned because 'look how noble and environmentally conscious their market choice is!'

Your unified front apparently means that any concerns that are raised about multi-billion dollar companies should be silenced when your chosen preferred cause of eco friendliness is conflicted with.

[up] understood.

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 9th 2020 at 7:03:59 PM

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#322954: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:07:07 AM

I am not remotely suggesting that Democrats are above criticism. My issue with Bernie's approach is that he tends to attack the Democrats in broad strokes, and only supports them in specifics, usually tepidly. This creates a perception among his low-info followers that the Democrats as a whole are bad, with only those who have gotten his personal stamp of approval being on the good list.

This is backwards from how it needs to be done to get low info voters on our side. Support needs to be broad, and criticism focused. He should be touting the Democrats as the party for Progressives, and focusing his call outs on specific individuals and proposed bills.

He also seriously needs to stop with the purity tests.

Edited by Wryte on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:08:20 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322955: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:07:45 AM

If Bernie wants to criticize people or businesses, he can at least use legitimate reasons for it, not ones that he borrowed from Fox News propaganda. That is my final point.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#322956: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:08:41 AM

Seems to me like the problem is the two-party system forcing people who would otherwise choose a party that fits them better to be in the same one instead.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#322957: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:13:30 AM

Sorry, I'm for replacing larger portions of the Democrats with more progressive candidates. Bernie started the ball rolling even if he's not going to be the guy who rolls it across the finish line.

The Democrats have needed criticism for a long time and have gotten better because of it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Resileafs I actually wanted to be Resileaf Since: Jan, 2019
I actually wanted to be Resileaf
#322958: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:16:16 AM

That is true. Biden's platform wouldn't have gotten so many progressive points in it if Sanders wasn't so popular.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322959: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:18:47 AM

I'm certainly not in favour of pushing for unity except around actual candidates. And certainly not extending any form of political unity to random private enterprises.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#322960: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:20:49 AM

I am not remotely suggesting that Democrats are above criticism. My issue with Bernie's approach is that he tends to attack the Democrats in broad strokes, and only supports them in specifics, usually tepidly. This creates a perception among his low-info followers that the Democrats as a whole are bad, with only those who have gotten his personal stamp of approval being on the good list.

When it comes to rhetoric this is true, but I think his actual actions are rather different.

Firstly, his record in office is actually very pragmatic. He caucuses with the Democrats and he's never sabotaged a bill because it goes against fanatical principles of his (a la Freedom Caucus). That's the opposite of tepid.

On the personal stamp of approval thing, well Democrats are on average moderates. Most are not social democrats, much less socialists, it makes perfect sense for him to encourage those who are and support primary challengers. As a leftist, I wouldn't call that a flaw. Not when he backs Democrats when it counts.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:22:14 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#322961: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:21:46 AM

Except Sanders decided to portray them as being great sellouts who launched a Great Betrayal of the white working class. He was tone-deaf as hell, coming on the heels of the Obama administration.

It's ahistorical to say Sanders pushed them left. He ended up doing little by the end of 2016 but helping Trump while cranking up the conspiracy. He signed to run as a Democrat, then whined about the rules being unfair to him. Like, can we talk about that? He pitched a fit over everything. Primaries, endorsements, superdelegates, without a word when it benefited him. He promoted conspiracy theories why he launched, trafficked in dogwhistling (calling black voters in the south "The Old Confederacy" when Clinton won) and refused to just go away.

The Democrats had already moved left since the 90s. They continued to move left. But Sanders didn't achieve much but to put up a cult of personality to people who excused failings in him they excoriated in others. People like Booker and Gillibrand did the right things and got zero credit for it. Yes, people blamed Gillibrand for Al Franken unfairly, that's absoltuely true.

Now nobody mentions the accusation against Biden anymore when it turned out some people were trying to use it to put Sanders back in and get Biden to drop out. Sanders doesn't deserve credit for 'the ball rolling' when all he's done for decades is stand out screaming at people for not matching standards he himself fails. His 'accomplishments' were mostly "added an amendment that never passed" or "proposed this" or "moved money from this department to another." IT's really, really tiresome to call any criticism of a benchwarmer who ignored progressive causes beyond his personal hobby-horses for decades as "right-wing propaganda."

Sanders ignored racial activists, voted for just about every military budget, dumped waste on a poor town that didn't want it and scorned meeting with them, helped the NRA on vital matters...but we're supposed to buy him as the champion of progressivism because he's slightly to the left on health care and yells real loud.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:26:36 AM

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#322962: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:22:40 AM

It would be nice to be able to put a Progressive in every Congressional seat. Unfortunately, that's not how reality works. A lot of areas won't elect anyone that far Left, and a moderate Democrat is still leagues better than a Republican of any stripe.

And I remain highly skeptical of how much of the Democrats' harder lean into progressivism since 2016 can truly be attributed to Bernie, and how much can be attributed to backlash against Trump and the rise of Millenials. Quite the contrary, I suspect that Bernie's rise to prominence in and after 2016 is far less because he turned many people toward progressivism, and more because Millenials were already driven Left by the Bush era and its consequences for our generation, and would be pushing the party Left as we enter the political sphere regardless of Bernie's influence.

Firstly, his record in office is actually very pragmatic. He caucuses with the Democrats and he's never sabotaged a bill because it goes against fanatical principles of his (a la Freedom Caucus). That's the opposite of tepid.

Again, we're talking about low information voters here, who do not know or care about the nitty gritty of the legislative process.

Edited by Wryte on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:26:12 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#322963: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:25:47 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322964: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:26:48 AM
Thumped: This post has been thumped with the mod stick. This means knock it off.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#322965: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:28:12 AM

Bernie doesn't get credit for caucusing with the Democrats and being pragmatic when he shouts about other people for doing the same.

[up] I'm really amazed Nathan Robinson and Katie Halper just got to bury that now. Robinson was literally coaching people to change their stories to be worse for Biden, Halper didn't bother to vet the story and then it came out from other reporters that they had investigated it and found problems.

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:31:26 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322966: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:30:46 AM
Thumped: Wow. That was rude. Too many of this kind of thump will bring a suspension. Please keep it civil.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#322967: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:30:53 AM

Yeah Bernie very much seems to believe in "practicality me, not for thee".

That's before we get into his current bill, which isn't a good bill with no hope of passing because of Republicans, it's just a strait up bad bill that's there for political grandstanding.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322968: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:31:53 AM

The Democrats had already moved left since the 90s.

...Kinda?

Obama was a Leftward shift after the utter debacle of Centrism that was the Clinton administration, but even then in some ways it wasn't. He continued a lot of the new Right Wing policies that Bush did, his response to the financial crisis might has well been any other Democrat, and the ACA infamously was based off of a Republican proposal. On social issues, he was more progressive than Bush or Clinton, but not to the extent that either of the 2016 candidates tried pushing.

And yeah, Bernie's habit of being tone deaf at best is why I don't actually like him too much (I probably should have lead with that...). However, the movement he created, with everyone from AOC being explicitly inspired by his run to Warren shifting further Leftwards, I'm grateful for, even if he's your loud, somewhat racist uncle.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#322969: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:32:31 AM

What did I just say about derailing into Musk?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#322970: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:33:49 AM

Except Sanders decided to portray them as being great sellouts who launched a Great Betrayal of the white working class. He was tone-deaf as hell, coming on the heels of the Obama administration.

Your argument is you dislike Bernie because he's mean to the Democrats?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#322971: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:33:53 AM

What I think drove in a lot?

Cory Booker was excoriated for voting against a meaningless committee amendment about importing drugs from Canada. The bill never would have become law, Booker voted for a second one allowing the same and all it would've done was let the committee Chairman maybe sorta put it for a vote. There were shouts for weeks over how Cory Booker was a sellout.

Booker sponsored an actual bill with Sanders about importing those drugs and...nothing. Absolutely no credit whatsoever. The fact Booker might be the best senator in US history on criminal justice reform? No credit for it either. Sanders spent time attacking Clinton for the crime bill, something he himself voted for.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#322972: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:36:59 AM

...Kinda?

Obama was a Leftward shift after the utter debacle of Centrism that was the Clinton administration, but even then in some ways it wasn't. He continued a lot of the new Right Wing policies that Bush did, his response to the financial crisis might has well been any other Democrat, and the ACA infamously was based off of a Republican proposal.

No it wasn't. Please, let's stop saying this. The ACA was NOT based on the Heritage Plan, it had nothing in common with it beyond an individual mandate. Massachusetts' Plan was not created by Romney.

Also, people memory-hole Clinton passed SCHIP and ran on universal healthcare, which he tried to enact. There's a lot of criticisms over his mixed-bag administration, but he was better than Bush and Reagan.

But even at his worst, Obama never made the capitulations Clinton did. Clinton deregulated Wall Street as a concession, Obama enacted Dodd-Frank and put up the consumer Finance Protection Bureau in that bill. Clinton failed at Universal Healthcare, Obama passed the ACA. Clinton put up DADT and DOMA. Obama put up two left-wing jurists to strike down the latter while not defending it in court and repealed the former.

On social issues, he was more progressive than Bush or Clinton, but not to the extent that either of the 2016 candidates tried pushing.

And yeah, Bernie's habit of being tone deaf at best is why I don't actually like him too much (I probably should have lead with that...). However, the movement he created, with everyone from AOC being explicitly inspired by his run to Warren shifting further Leftwards, I'm grateful for, even if he's your loud, somewhat racist uncle.

Warren is Warren...I don't think Bernie had much to do with her shift, and given how his camp treated Warren?

Edited by Lightysnake on Aug 9th 2020 at 11:39:05 AM

ScubaWolf from South Carolina Since: Feb, 2020
#322973: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:39:03 AM

Warren is Warren...I don't think Bernie had much to do with her shift, and given how his camp treated Warren?
Don't bring this up. We don't need another 2-5 pages on that subject, we got enough of that on the campaign trail.

Edited by ScubaWolf on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:39:05 PM

"In a move surprising absolutely no one"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322974: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:41:42 AM

Warren is Warren...I don't think Bernie had much to do with her shift, and given how his camp treated Warren?

Before they broke, they were allies, and their respective fans were remarkably chummy. Of course, we know how it ended...(and before you accuse me of anything, I was on the Warrens side of that split)

No it wasn't. Please, let's stop saying this. The ACA was NOT based on the Heritage Plan, it had nothing in common with it beyond an individual mandate. Massachusetts' Plan was not created by Romney.

Also, people memory-hole Clinton passed SCHIP and ran on universal healthcare, which he tried to enact. There's a lot of criticisms over his mixed-bag administration, but he was better than Bush and Reagan.

God, can we stop trying to whitewash Clinton already?

He broke too many promises, betrayed Queer rights, attacked welfare, booted the progressives in his economic circle, fucking raped someone and got away with it, drove the entire Democratic Party Rightwards with the "triangulation" policy, continued to attempt to work with the Republican Party despite them personally hating his guts, the crime bill that Sanders helped pass was under his administration, and so on and so forth.

William Clinton is a bad person, and a bad President, and the sooner this bizzare misplaced nostalgia that half the world has for him dies the better.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:41:58 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#322975: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:43:33 AM

fucking raped someone and got away with it

Could you elaborate on that? I have an idea about his mistreatment of women, but that goes further than anything I've heard about.


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