TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#322926: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:05:59 AM

Bernie hasn't? Said that the Democrats? Are just as bad as the Republicans?

He hasn't said it outright, but a lot of his supporters have, and he has played a significant part in fanning those flames. His claims about the 2016 primary being unfair, his ongoing refusal to join the Democratic Party, his frequent attacks on Democrats, etc., all paint the Democrats as awful without him ever having to actual say the literal words, "Democrats are the same as Republicans," further exacerbated by his populist rhetoric being especially attractive to low information voters who aren't inclined to educate themselves any further than Facebook memes.

Edited by Wryte on Aug 9th 2020 at 10:08:03 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322927: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:08:51 AM

Uh...

his populist rhetoric being especially attractive to low information voters who aren't inclined to educate themselves any further than Facebook memes.

All this means is he's good at outreach.

...all paint the Democrats as awful without him ever having to actual say the literal words, "Democrats are the same as Republicans,"

These are not the same thing. You can dislike the Democrats but still hate the Republicans more.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322928: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:11:03 AM

Again, this isn't about Elon Musk as a person. This is about Bernie cannibalizing people and institutions that he should be championing if he actually believes what he says he does... never mind unironically spreading disinformation that comes right out of the lips of Big Oil.

All this means is he's good at outreach.
I hate to bring in this comparison, but Alex Jones is good at "outreach". That doesn't mean that the things he wants would help, or are even intellectually coherent.

Bernie may be bringing in the "low-information voters", but he is actively harming the Democratic brand with "mid-information voters". Also, we've seen the past four years what happens when "low-information voters" run a party.

The Democrats aren't as bad as the Republicans by any means. I keep thrashing this point online, but Bernie and his supporters make it awfully hard.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:15:47 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#322929: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:11:33 AM

People accusing other people of bothsiderism whenever they criticize the Democrats have become just as obnoxious as actual bothsiders in my opinion.

Edited by Forenperser on Aug 9th 2020 at 7:11:22 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322930: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:13:53 AM

He should be championing a super-wealthy billionaire who embody all the problems of untaxable wealth because they founded a company that makes environmentally friendly cars? Which one is he more known for campaigning on, again?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322931: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:15:19 AM

Forget about Musk. I don't give a damn. Bernie should be championing a company that is leading innovation into sustainable energy and transportation, not spouting propaganda lines right out of the playbook of Exxon-Mobil.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:15:51 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322932: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:17:15 AM

Well, I have no idea what you're talking about now because I thought this was on the wealth tax but now you're talking about oil companies.

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322933: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:17:31 AM

>Fighteer: We have wildly different perceptions on Musk's (and his companies) morality, Bernie going after him is a good thing in my book, its clearly not in yours, let's please leave it at that.

And again, being better than the Republicans does not make one good.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:18:58 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#322934: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:19:42 AM

This discussion is literally about Bernie, getting pissy because I recognize that is not warranted.

I was "getting pissy" because you were putting words into my mouth. I'm one of those weird people who doesn't like being misrepresented.

[up]Again, you're arguing against things no one here is saying. The contention is not people disliking Democrats; it's people claiming Democrats and Republicans to be equally awful. I don;t see how this could be made any clearer at this point.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:23:50 PM

i'm tired, my friend
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322935: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:21:29 AM

Bernie brought up the claim that Tesla is subsidized by the government as an example of predatory capitalism [1]. So let's break this down:

  • All electric vehicles receive federal subsidies in most countries. Gas cars and the oil industry in general receive roughly ten times that, however, on a global basis, more like 100 times if you count unpriced externalities like climate change and pollution-related deaths.
  • Tesla has consumed its allowance in the U.S. and no longer gets those subsidies, while other EV makers do. The government is paying people not to buy Teslas.
  • Tesla did receive a loan from the government, as did all other automakers around the 2009 period as part of Barack Obama's attempt to save the auto industry from collapse. Tesla is the only one to have paid it back, never mind paid it back early.
  • Tesla sells regulatory credits to other automakers because it makes nothing but zero-emission vehicles while they must either buy credits from companies like Tesla, *gasp* actually make EVs, or face steep fines.
  • Tesla would be profitable even without regulatory credits if it were not spending tons of money in capex and R&D. These credits are subsidizing its expansion, not its basic operations.

Bernie might as well be quoting an Exxon-Mobil stooge on CNBC, even if the only reason he's mad at Tesla is because Elon Musk runs it.

And again, being better than the Republicans does not make one good.
You have a better idea? We can work to make the Democrats better, to be sure, but I've looked high and low for a third option and there isn't one.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:26:37 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322936: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:26:47 AM

You have a better idea? We can work to make the Democrats better, to be sure, but I've looked high and low for a third option and there isn't one.

Part of working to make the Democrats better is recognizing that they aren't good as they currently stand.

It means calling out their members for bigoted statements, keeping an eye on their legislative priorities, and holding their fat to the fire when they attempt to make policy or movements that harm others.

As for the Tesla thing, I could bring up working conditions to start, or that the electric cars are mostly still only affordable for the rich, or how another of his companies (Neuralink) he said he hopes to try to eliminate autism with it, but it is off topic and I'm more concerned about the other point.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:28:25 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#322937: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:36:08 AM

Bernie...hasn't passed that much, actually. The 'Rolling Stone' thing was written by Matt Taibbi, a notoriously dishonest Bernie-fan punditwho invented a title for him out of mostly meaningless roll-call amendments. His career's been marked by incrementalism, compromise and doing little. The kind of thing other politicians got attacked for him.

All of this is flat out not true and Right wing propaganda. I've posted his accomplishments before and they're fantastic.

Also putting down "roll call" amenmdents is ridiculous.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 9th 2020 at 10:37:26 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322938: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:38:46 AM

Tesla workers are not in slave shops. That's another Big Oil/CNBC attack line, and just because they aren't represented by the UAW doesn't mean they're chained to the manufacturing line. The UAW hates Tesla anyway because electric vehicle manufacturing is less labor-intensive.

Also, you'd have a hard time finding an EV that is cheaper than $30K (except those glorified golf carts that nobody in the U.S. would ever buy), and most people seem to conveniently omit that Tesla's best-selling vehicle, the Model 3, has a base price of $38K. That's not cheap, but it's hardly a rich person's car.

Anyway, it's simply not economical to produce a sub-$30K EV that is attractive to consumers at the moment due to battery prices, but those are being driven down... by Tesla, who is the world's largest consumer and producer of lithium-ion batteries (if you count its partnership with Panasonic in Nevada). And no, the cobalt doesn't come from Congoese slave mines, the lithium comes from Australia, and Tesla sources its raw materials ethically.

Also, no, EVs are not net polluters. They are slightly more polluting to manufacture but make that up within two years of operation. No, they aren't dirtier than gas cars when charged in states that run on coal power. Even in those situations they're still 3x cleaner than gas cars because coal plants are much more efficient than internal combustion engines.

It seems like every time someone mentions Tesla, all the anti-EV propaganda comes up, like people have internalized Fox News. This is what I mean about self-cannibalism. When you have people on the left whining about EVs polluting and GMOs causing cancer, it discredits the whole progressive movement. It's bizarre that all this energy is being spent attacking genuinely beneficial things when there are so many other more interesting targets.

As for Neuralink, it hopes to help people with paralysis and degenerative brain diseases like Parkinson's and Alzheimer's. I'm not going to enter into a debate about whether autism is something that can or should be treated. Yes, Elon said that, but he's said a lot of things, and the important part is that it's going to help a lot of people if it works.


The gist of this rant is that Democrats are killing themselves with this autocannibalism.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:43:32 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322939: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:42:12 AM

Oh, Tesla's a sacred cow again that nobody must ever criticise in any capacity, all hail capitalism. FFS.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322940: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:45:05 AM

Nobody's going to get gas cars off the streets by building electric vehicles in organic, artisinal shops, bud. I'm sorry, but capitalism has its uses.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322941: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:45:24 AM

[up]x3 I have said nothing about my opinions on GM Os (mostly good), electric vehicles in general (good, with conditions), and I didn't say Tesla factories were slave shops. I don't believe that, don't put words into my mouth. I mentioned that the working conditions are...sub-optimal.

And if you are so concerned with auto-cannibalism, then continually going after the parties Left Wing is not very helpful.

[up] "Artisan shops" and "Capitalism" are not polar opposites. Hell, most of the early-mid labor movement centered around factories.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:46:04 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#322942: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:45:32 AM

All this means is he's good at outreach.

You can't clip off the rest of the point like that. I'm not saying it's a bad thing that Bernie can connect with low information voters, I'm saying it's a bad thing that he connects with low information voters and then fans their mistrust of government as a whole by frequently making bad, misleading, or outright false criticisms of the Democrats.

These are not the same thing. You can dislike the Democrats but still hate the Republicans more.

That is a level of nuance that a significant portion of the public is either not capable or unwilling to engage with. A major pole of Right Wing propaganda is not just radicalizing their own base, but driving apathy or outright hostility to the Democrats in moderates and even leftists by painting them as just as bad as Republicans, and Bernie has a bad habit of playing into their hands by being a highly visible Left-wing figure who frequently attacks the Democrats for not being Left enough.

Low information voters do not hear that and think, "The Democrats are imperfect, but they're the best path toward our goals." They think, "Bernie = Left. Republicans = Right. Democrats = Right of Bernie. Therefore, Democrats = Right = Republicans." It creates a cult of personality around Bernie that rejects the Democratic Party as centrist corporate shills who are universally lying about their intentions to help people and will inevitably betray them to Wall Street.

I have to deal with far too many of these people in my social circles.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322943: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:49:07 AM

[up][up] You can't turn this around on me for rhetorical points. Bernie is the one attacking his own party for not being progressive enough, and he's dragging "low-information voters" along for the ride.

As for electric vehicles, the only way to manufacture them cheaply enough and in sufficient numbers is to leverage economies of scale, and you can only do that through massive capital investment. This is basic economic fact. If it weren't Tesla in the lead, then who else? Are we going to reject them all until we find the unicorn that meets our every last whim?

Tesla isn't perfect, obviously, but it's the best we've got. Work to improve it, sure. Tear it down because it doesn't meet our standards? Hell to the no.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:49:20 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322944: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:49:57 AM

[up]x2 Yeah, but its not any better to paint this picture of "Republicans + bad (true), ergo Democrats = Good". Then you just have a lot of people willing to defend the Democrats whenever they do something shitty. Hell, there's a lot of those types already, god knows we don't need more of them. That's a one way ticket to people defending folks like Gabbard or Franken under the auspices of them being on "our team".

[up] Again, working to improve it requires criticizing it and recognizing that it isn't necessarily good first.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:53:59 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#322945: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:50:28 AM

Bernie has a bad habit of playing into their hands by being a highly visible Left-wing figure who frequently attacks the Democrats for not being Left enough.

I'm trying to parse this sentence. It doesn't make any sense to me. The idea we shouldn't criticize Democrats or try to strive better. Obama was elected because people knew we could do better than the Establishment. Because there is systemic racism, abuse of the public, and institutional cruelties that we need to remove.

Things Bernie contributed to because he said, "We don't have to be as bad as they are."

And it worked.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322946: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:54:02 AM

[up] Again, work to improve it requires criticizing it and recognizing that it isn't necessarily good first.

Yeah, but when criticizing it, let's not borrow right-wing talking points, yeah? Much like Hillary. There were things to criticize about her, but an awful lot of what I heard from people every day on social media and in person was right out of that propaganda book from Alex Jones's buddy whose name I don't recall at the moment.

@Charles: If Bernie had only done that, great. But he also formed a cult of personality about yelling at everyone who doesn't meet his standards, with his followers sending death threats to anyone who didn't sign on to Medicare for All. It doesn't take a genius to realize that's not healthy. And then moderates look at him claiming to stand as the pinnacle of progressivism and quite rightly get turned off.

Republicans laugh at us every time they see us attacking each other. A unified front is the only way to get things back to a point where we can even begin to talk about achieving our real goals.

Edit: As for Franken, it was entirely reasonable to be skeptical of the accusations, because this is what the Right does: it drums up charges and waits for the Left to set up the circular firing squad. As more and more evidence came out, even the most skeptical among us agreed he had to go.

Remember Biden and that accusation that turned out to be bollocks? Look at all the people on the left who screamed for his head before the evidence was even in. We have a thing called "due process" for a reason, and it applies no matter who is accused.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 1:56:22 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#322947: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:55:25 AM

So criticism is only allowed if it meets your standards first? That feels like it boils down to no criticism regardless.

Why the hell are you trying to lump in a single car company with the entire left? Seriously.

Edited by RainehDaze on Aug 9th 2020 at 6:57:53 PM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322948: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:58:02 AM

A unified front is the only way to get things back to a point where we can even begin to talk about achieving our real goals.

You cannot have a united front if you are going to insist that your political opponents just settle down and let you control things for the time being. The answer is going to be "no". If you really, truly want a united front, you're going to have to recognize that folks like Bernie are going to get a say. You're going to have to recognize that they might be vocal about their disapproval of your policies. God only knows moderates take pot shots at Leftist policy all the dang time.

Also, Franken had pictures of the incident. Implausible Deniability at its finest.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#322949: Aug 9th 2020 at 10:58:57 AM

[up][up]Why are you defending Bernie's criticisms of Tesla?

I thought climate change was something everyone agreed needs to be addressed as one of the highest political priorities. After all, we need to have a functioning civilization if we're going to address issues like economic and racial justice.

So when a company comes along whose highest priority is fighting climate change, we start picking at it like vultures because we don't like the person who runs it. Good job, us. If we take it down out of this absurd crusade for perfection, it's the pinnacle of own-goals.

[up] Yes, there was evidence. Which is what we're supposed to respect as part of due process. Also, photos can be taken out of context. It turned out that it wasn't, but again, this rush to judge is poisonous.

I don't want Bernie to shut up. I want him to compromise.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:00:45 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#322950: Aug 9th 2020 at 11:00:42 AM

I think you'll find a lot of the people criticizing Tesla have no more love for fossil-fuel burning vehicles.

As for "Why Tesla" well...it could be that Elon, like Bernie, has a really vocal fandom on places like Twitter. And that the rhetoric does not match up to the reality.

Yes, there was evidence. Which is what we're supposed to respect as part of due process. Also, photos can be taken out of context. It turned out that it wasn't, but again, this rush to judge is poisonous.

No, it wasn't. Someone (I don't remember her name) admitted Franken groped her, it was substantiated by others around them, and physical photographs, and all too many people condemned Gillibrand for having the entirely correct opinion of "we shouldn't defend sex pests".

Edited by AzurePaladin on Aug 9th 2020 at 2:02:57 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer

Total posts: 417,856
Top