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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#298251: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:08:53 AM

@Physical Stamina

Was intentional and I'm far from the first to use the term. tongue

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#298252: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:18:12 AM

Yeah, looks like Tengu wasn't aware that "bothsideism" isn't literally listening to both sides equally, it's drawing a false equivalence between both sides of an argument as if both had equal merit when the evidence doesn't support that. "Bothsideism" in the American politics discussion is, broadly speaking, giving the Republican side extra credibility when they're largely a bunch of regressive and reactionary sociopaths.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jan 9th 2020 at 4:18:47 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
TitanJump Since: Sep, 2013 Relationship Status: Singularity
#298253: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:21:04 AM

There's also, just to mention, the (now) minority of republicans who are genuinely good people, and are now ashamed to brand themselves as "republicans" in political debates among others but still clinging to the hope that the republican party "maybe" can change back to what it once was before it started slipping downhill as it has done up to this point.

(How can I say this with a good conscience? I know one that is a genuinely good republican, who has read up on the history of the party, and rather doesn't watch any news at all since "they" claims they claim that all of the channels are "not republican" (yes, even Fox News!) while asking me to keep an eye out if something fitting their definition of "republican" shows up. They still have their common sense intact, and doesn't let their loyalty to the party blind them to the reality around them and their own morals. They read the bible, and when comparing to what the GOP are doing, concluded that they rather take the word of the "Good Book" rather than "the voices of man claiming righteousness in their actions due to party-affiliation alone", and they are horrified about what's going on at the border, as they state "God gave us commandments! This is not how to follow them!" AND they would rather see guns treated as "weapons", not "toys", that most people clinging to the 2A seems to consider them, in their opinion.)

I actually feel bad for this one, since the only reason they talk to me, is because I'm "a man of common sense" and then asks me repeatedly, "Is God punishing us by putting a heathen like Donald Trump in the White House?"

What am I supposed to answer on that?

I don't believe in God.

Then we part ways until next time our paths cross further down ahead...

And part of me dread what might happen to this poor soul if November comes around and Trump gets reelected for a second term...

(And no,they refuse to "convert" into the democratic camp, since they believe that even if they got good intentions, they lack the "spirit" needed to put them into action.)

...

This made me realize that not all republicans are like the rabid, non-thinking, blindly supporting, extremists I see on the news every day, but some, even if it is just a few of them, joined the party because they read its history and wanted to feel the pride of belonging to the "Party of Lincoln".

The hopeful few that are now drowned out by the rapid masses intoxicated on the bad shot that's Donald Trump and the current GOP...

...

Is it wrong to feel bad for these unfortunate few true republicans who're clinging to the hope that the party might revert to what it once upon a time started off as?

Edited by TitanJump on Jan 9th 2020 at 5:21:39 PM

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#298254: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:21:29 AM

Wouldn't it be more productive to assume those whose viewpoints dont match your own have different political priorities, but are otherwise acting in good faith?

"Good faith" and "good" are two different things. The problem here is that even if we did believe that all Republicans were acting in good faith, the things they're doing in that "good faith" are absolutely abhorrent.

I don't give a damn if someone is a true believer or a grifter paying lip service to an idea, when that idea is that certain people aren't deserving of fundamental human rights depending on the color of their skin, sexual preference, gender identity, etc.; anyone who espouses those beliefs, sincere or not, is a garbage human being who should be stripped of any modicum of power over those groups.

Edited by Wryte on Jan 9th 2020 at 8:22:37 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#298255: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:33:01 AM

The problem with "listen to both sides" is that the Republicans are EVIL. They are TORTURING and MURDERING people en masse. They are literally committing GENOCIDE as we speak. They are the modern equivalent of NAZIS. They are evil, evil people who need to be stopped.

Literally nothing I said up there is an exaggeration, people are really being tortured, people are really being murdered by their policies, children being taken away from their parents is ONE OF THE LITERAL DEFINITIONS OF GENOCIDE, and they're directly supported by LITERAL NEO-NAZIS.

They're EVIL, they don't DESERVE to be listened to. End of story.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#298256: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:36:20 AM

Oh, I think you should listen to both sides.

To determine from how high should you atomic elbow the Right.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#298257: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:40:44 AM

I mean, I do think you should "listen" to both sides of an argument because there's never any harm to be gained by understanding someone (even if that person is heinous, understanding their viewpoint and motivations means you are better equipped to stop them). The thing is that there's no guarantee youre going to find both sides have equal merit or be sympathetic to their goals and viewpoints. A blanket assumption of validity is just as misplaced as assuming both are bad or that one is bad right off the bat.

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#298258: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:45:12 AM

There's a lot of value in videos that dissect far-right and conservative talking points and public figures.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#298259: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:47:17 AM

Okay, fair, listen to them as you would listen to an enemy agent you're interrogating for information.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jan 9th 2020 at 9:49:35 AM

TenguSkunkworks from Thailand Since: Nov, 2016
#298260: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:52:58 AM

@sgamer82 I am inclined to ask the reverse, what would you consider a Republican party act of bad faith that they have committed while in opposition under Mr Obama, and as government under Mr Trump. I wasnt aware of them acting as anything other than as they should in their respective roles.

In any case my original statement was referring to good faith of individual republicans expressing their point of view. I was making this in response to some statements 3-4 pages ago which suggest republicans have such political viewpoints more or less for giggles which imho is not correct.

@Golden Kaos Tax cut, continued strong performance of stock market, deregulation, relatively low unemployment, decrease in overall government spending, investment in infrastructure.

re:bothsideism ahh ty for the clarification, I wasnt aware that is the definition.

Edited by TenguSkunkworks on Jan 9th 2020 at 11:56:18 PM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#298261: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:53:20 AM

"Good faith" and "good" are two different things. The problem here is that even if we did believe that all Republicans were acting in good faith, the things they're doing in that "good faith" are absolutely abhorrent.
I confess, this is not an angle I'd considered, but it's true. Even if you assume Republicans are doing everything they do in good faith, everything they're doing in good faith is morally repugnant.

It's almost worse than cold blooded cynicism.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#298262: Jan 9th 2020 at 8:58:59 AM

[up][up]genuine question, but tax cuts for who? The wealthy? What's the benefit?

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#298263: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:05:03 AM

This repeated pattern, yes, smells like trolling of the "innocent question, why would you get upset at such an innocent question" variety.

TenguSkunkworks from Thailand Since: Nov, 2016
#298264: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:05:05 AM

@Draghinazzo

Well, as someone who lives outside the US but am investing in the tax reduction was definitely an incentive.

Besides the tax cut doesnt just benefit the super wealthy, a lot of my postgrad class are currently residents in the US. They are are firmly in the "middle class" bracket (income range about USD 150k-300k or so) and the response from the tax cut has been quite positive, and the tax reductions quite substantial.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#298265: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:06:44 AM

what would you consider a Republican party act of bad faith that they have committed while in opposition under Mr Obama,

Blatantly refusing to do their job up and including dragging out a SCOTUS confirmation until the next president?

The Obama Congress have a negative record for actual laws passed because the GOP refused to let them get to votes.

"You can reply to this Message!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#298266: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:07:01 AM

Re: ~Tengu Skunkworks

I am inclined to ask the reverse, what would you consider a republican act of bad faith that they have committed while in opposition under Mr Obama, and as government under Mr Trump. I wasnt aware of them acting as anything other than as they should in their respective roles.
To pick a single, clear-cut example: the nominations of Supreme Court Justices Neil Gorusch and Brett Kavanaugh.

Disclaimer: Dates may not be precise

Justice Antonin Scalia died February of 2016, when Obama was in office. Given that, Obama was well within his right to nominate a replacement, which he did with Merrick Garland.

The Republicans in the Senate spent the entire time refusing to so much as hold a confirmation hearing for Garland. They stalled and stalled until the 2016 election concluded with Trump's victory, at which point Gorusch was confirmed before the end of summer 2017. In the process of confirming Gorusch, they changed the Supreme Court confirmation to a simple majority vote rather than a 2/3 vote so they could confirm him without needing any Democrats at all. The Democrats did change the confirmation rule the same way for judges below Supreme Court, but did so due to exactly the same Republican stonewalling seen with Garland.

As for Brett Kavanaugh, he was confirmed amid scandals and accusations of sexual misconduct in his young adult days, within a month or two of his predecessor's retirement. Further, one of the reasons the Senate used to stonewall Garland was that 2016 was an election year. Kavanaugh was confirmed in 2018, also an election year, albeit midterm election rather than presidential election. It was one of the bigger midterms in recent memory, however, and one that was looking increasingly bad for Republicans at the time.

So we have one Supreme Court Justice confirmed after stonewalling a legitimate president's legitimately nominated replacement, and another one that couldn't be voted in fast enough despite how scandal ridden he was. Both of which were accomplished by means of essentially Screw the Rules, I Make Them!.

If that's not bad faith in your book, then I can only assume you're not here in good faith.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 9th 2020 at 10:14:45 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#298267: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:07:03 AM

I don’t think that deregulation is a net positive - I think many companies are willing to engage in dishonest and even dangerous activities if it means making a profit, and regulations keep them honest. Perhaps there are some that do more harm than good, but Trump clearly doesn’t make that decision, and I don’t think the GOP as a whole do either.

Oh God! Natural light!
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#298268: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:18:01 AM

Why should I give a damn about the stock market?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#298269: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:20:08 AM

Okay count me among those who think we're being trolled here.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ITNW1989 a from Big Meat, USA Since: Nov, 2012 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
a
#298270: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:23:00 AM

Yeah, there's no way we aren't being trolled here. Not with "I don't live in the US," "my investments are doing great, so the GOP is doing great," and "150-300 thousand is middle class."

Hitokiri in the streets, daishouri in the sheets.
PhysicalStamina ain't nothin' but a party y'all (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
ain't nothin' but a party y'all
#298271: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:24:07 AM

[up][up]That's why I've largely sat this out. He has all the marking of a right-wing troll: "innocent" questions, accusations of dogpiling, self-victimization, the works. Honestly I think some people have been too soft on him.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jan 9th 2020 at 12:25:16 PM

Do not spare the feelings of those who would not spare yours.
nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#298272: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:26:31 AM

OK, guys, Tengu can make their case elsewhere. They are not permitted to continue posting at this time.

Please change the topic off of this individual.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#298273: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:27:20 AM

NVM, saw mod post.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 9th 2020 at 9:27:49 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#298275: Jan 9th 2020 at 9:33:06 AM

Out of purely personal interest, was my summary of the supreme Court shenanigans overall accurate? I some claim and special understanding so I'm not sure I recalled it all correctly.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 9th 2020 at 10:34:28 AM


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