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KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#290901: Sep 25th 2019 at 6:51:42 AM

To be fair, I don't think anyone here wanted Sanders

Watch me destroying my country
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#290902: Sep 25th 2019 at 6:54:36 AM

Not yet but both Sanders and Warren are shouting "On your Left" for a while now

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#290903: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:03:37 AM

Sanders has been lagging and shows no signs of gaining support. This is his critical problem: he has a bank of die-hard supporters but is unable to gain traction outside that demographic while someone like Warren is out there, sounding more sensible AND offering more detailed plans.

You see, I don't think Sanders realizes that his rallying cries aren't what most Democrats want. "Medicare for All", "$15 Minimum Wage", and "Break Up The Banks" are catchy slogans but are too trite, too pat.

  • Yes, we want universal healthcare. No, we don't care what form it takes as long as it happens.
  • Yes, we want wage guarantees, but it doesn't matter so much whether it takes the form of a higher minimum wage, a living income, MBI, etc.
  • Yes, we want better regulation of the financial industry, but not all of us agree that tearing it down and starting over is the answer.

Further, we don't trust that Sanders has a realistic foreign policy (or indeed any foreign policy), nor that he has a plan for dealing with opposition within his own party, never mind Republican opposition. I haven't heard him talking that much about environmental policy, either, and with the Climate Strike that just happened and the increasing fear among everyone who isn't an idiot, it's becoming a bigger and bigger issue.

We want someone with a track record of legislative accomplishments, not someone who's spent his life yelling into the wind with little to show for it. We want someone who's going to unify the party, not a self-proclaimed outsider who's ridden its coat-tails while constantly fighting against it.


[down] Yes. Not charging Trump conveys a far more powerful message: Democrats won't bother holding him to account because it's pointless. People see all the things he's done and ask, "Why isn't he being impeached?" To hear that the answer is a political one can only serve to diminish faith in the system. We must impeach at this point or the idea of the rule of law in this country is a sham.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 25th 2019 at 10:10:42 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290904: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:06:40 AM

Unfortunately, I think the impeachment proceedings will have the opposite effect. Even so called "moderate" voters don't know how impeachment works at all and will assume that if Trump isn't escorted kicking and screaming by security personnel then "Deh...it was all really a witch hunt! President Trump is right!"

I'm sorry, I just don't get this. Basically, it falls into a very easy Logical Fallacy. So the assumption is that it'll work like something different from OJ that everyone will assume he's innocent but if he's not charged at all then somehow he's going to be viewed as MORE guilty?

Call me crazy but I think its much more likely charging him will convince more people he's guilty than not charging him at all. It's a bad strategy to believe (and do) otherwise.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 25th 2019 at 7:08:47 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#290905: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:08:40 AM

Again, the header. We're not supposed to talk about the pros and cons of impeachment. The other poster already agreed to drop this.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#290906: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:16:30 AM

I believe that 538 attributed some of Sanders' drop to Warren eating into his base. So even the core of his following aren't all die hards.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#290907: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:21:08 AM

I think that people are confusing impeachment with removal. Frankly impeachment will involve his crimes being dragged even further out into the open which will damage his reputation if nothing else.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290908: Sep 25th 2019 at 7:46:54 AM

Sanders's problem is that he's a Single-Issue Wonk. He is utterly 100% convinced that everything, every single thing wrong in the United States, will be solved if his economic policy passes.

Wage disparity, costs of healthcare, these are bad things and need to be solved. But Sanders seems to be under the impression that the only thing he'd need to do as President is solve these specific problems, and then that's it. Racism will end, sexism will end, foreign policy will be fixed, etc. He has this one platform and nothing else to his name.

This is what makes Elizabeth Warren more attractive as a candidate. She also wants to solve these problems, but she also has comprehensive plans for everything else too. She sees the economy as a piece of the puzzle, where Sanders sees it as the whole puzzle.

Also, Warren isn't pro-Russia so that's cool too.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2019 at 8:47:08 AM

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ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#290910: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:27:34 AM

[up]

Yeah... that's pretty fucking blatant.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290911: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:30:44 AM

Smoking gun. We got him.

By which I mean that he will continue to not face any consequences after Mitch's Senate exonerates him and FOX News will find a way to spin this as a political attack. But this provides a justification for dragging Trump into an impeachment hearing and laying out the evidence of his many, many crimes before and during his Presidency in a way that's easy to understand and, more importantly, easily reported on.

And doing it right in front of live news cameras, which will undoubtedly be present for the biggest televised political event of the century. After two years of uncovering the facts at a glacial pace and drip-feeding the public with this and that and the other thing, Democrats will finally have an opportunity to stand in front of an eagerly watching American Public and lay out "The Case Against Donald Trump" in its totality.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2019 at 9:33:07 AM

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Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#290912: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:32:37 AM

This is also the summary of just one call. Allegedly, there were multiple, this is the one that the administration chose to release.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290913: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:34:32 AM

Also, continuing my train of thought, I hope the Democrats who will be working on the impeachment will keep that in mind.

We are NOT trying to convict Donald Trump in the Senate. That will never happen.

We must focus on trying to convict Donald Trump in the Court of Public Opinion.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 25th 2019 at 9:34:59 AM

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Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#290914: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:45:52 AM

Also if the content of the transcript is accurate, Trump speaks really slowly. Like 66WPM slowly.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#290915: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:46:55 AM

I mean, that's honestly normal (I mean Trump speaking slowly)

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 25th 2019 at 10:47:12 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#290916: Sep 25th 2019 at 8:55:08 AM

On a diplomatic call that's being transcribed and/or interpreted, you want to speak slowly so there's no chance of a fuck-up in either of those.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#290917: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:01:50 AM

Also if the content of the transcript is accurate, Trump speaks really slowly. Like 66WPM slowly.
From the document: "A Memorandum of a Telephone Conversation (TELCON) is not a verbatim transcript of a discussion. The text in this document records the notes and recollections of Situation Room Duty Officers and-NSC policy staff assigned to listen and memorialize the conversation in written form as the conversation takes place." My understanding is that it's not intended to be a set of direct quotes.

Also, continuing my train of thought, I hope the Democrats who will be working on the impeachment will keep that in mind.

We are NOT trying to convict Donald Trump in the Senate. That will never happen.

We must focus on trying to convict Donald Trump in the Court of Public Opinion.

I'm already seeing groups like Indivisible calling for the House to cancel next week's recess (its the Jewish high holidays) and vote immediately on articles of impeachment, without the extensive public hearings that might actually do some damage. I don't understand the logic of this at all, they're speaking as if this actually has a shot of removing him from office before next November? Doesn't a Republican majority senate prevent that?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290919: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:30:41 AM

I wonder if some Democrats just want him impeached so its a permanent mark on his record ala Bill.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290920: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:34:58 AM

This is what makes Elizabeth Warren more attractive as a candidate. She also wants to solve these problems, but she also has comprehensive plans for everything else too. She sees the economy as a piece of the puzzle, where Sanders sees it as the whole puzzle.

I'm going to be very definitive about this:

Looking at 2016, Elizabeth Warren pretty much should be the perfect candidate. She has pretty much everything that's good about Bernie mixed with everything people said made them support Hillary over Bernie and she has a better grasp on policies to achieve what needs to be achieved than both of them.

If you told me that Progressive scientists took Hillary and Bernie's DNA and then tweaked it to match everything everyone said they wanted in a candidate in 2016 and made a genetically engineered super democrat out of that and Elizabeth Warren was the result...

Well... I'd probably point out she was active before 2016, but I'd still be tempted to believe it.

Angry gets shit done.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#290921: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:40:15 AM

Apparently the document released today wasn't a full transcript, it was a summary. A pretty damning summary, but we don't have the full story yet.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Sep 25th 2019 at 1:49:14 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#290922: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:41:47 AM

I'm already seeing groups like Indivisible calling for the House to cancel next week's recess (its the Jewish high holidays) and vote immediately on articles of impeachment, without the extensive public hearings that might actually do some damage. I don't understand the logic of this at all, they're speaking as if this actually has a shot of removing him from office before next November? Doesn't a Republican majority senate prevent that?

Indivisible is calling for that? Why am I not surprised.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#290923: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:45:18 AM

Only this Administration would not only put out a summary of a phone call that is practically a glowing neon sign that says "IMPEACH ME!" along with sending the 'talking points/spin' to the WRONG GROUP of people.

At least Nixon was self aware...

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#290924: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:47:34 AM

> I wonder if some Democrats just want him impeached so its a permanent mark on his record ala Bill.

I doubt very doubt much its payback, for Bill,it's more like he's broken the law and they want him held to account

Right now Trump is liability for them,having him impeached means President Pence can take over

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290925: Sep 25th 2019 at 9:51:22 AM

Pence would be utterly trashed in an election.

So there's definitely that.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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