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Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290426: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:19:06 PM

[up]I dunno (don't worry, I know you were replying to the post above mine and that you'll probably have finished adding another arrow by the time I finish typing this).

Early 1900's Christian progressivism was responsible for some pretty bad shit, like prohibition, inventive new forms of homophobia ('Homosexuality is bourgeois' is a Christian Progressive meme) and over-criminalising prostitution.

Perhaps it's better if progressivism stays a secular thing compatible with compassionate Christianity, rather than something informed by Christianity.

Edit: Wow, what a page topper. Also looks like I was wrong (at the time of writing) about the extra arrow, but I still understand.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:22:02 PM

Angry gets shit done.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290427: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:21:02 PM

Eh, Prohibition was an understandable reaction to a serious public health crisis. It was a failure but I wouldn't list it with the others.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290428: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:25:12 PM

Not to be the Christian apologist here (even if I am), but secular progressivism also gave us anarchist and communist revolutions that didn't....work out so well.

Religion or philosophical, ideology always has extremists and assholes.

So, clearly the best option is to believe in nothing.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 18th 2019 at 4:26:53 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290429: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:26:19 PM

[up][up] I wouldn't have if it didn't have serious racist, classist and religiously intolerant element to it at the time.

Remember that prohibition was a flagship of specifically WASP progressivism and as such the use of wine in Jewish and Catholic religious rights was included in what they were campaigning against and also included the notion that the Italians, the Irish and blacks were poor because they were drinking so much, rather than drinking so much because they were poor and underprivileged.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:27:32 PM

Angry gets shit done.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290430: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:26:26 PM

[up][up]Right, but they weren't like that because of secularism. And anarchism has been ineffectual, not horrific, so it's kind of odd to list it next to Communists.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 18th 2019 at 4:26:43 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290431: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:33:38 PM

I wouldn't have if it didn't have serious racist, classist and religiously intolerant element to it at the time.

Remember that prohibition was a flagship of specifically WASP progressivism and as such the use of wine in Jewish and Catholic religious rights was included in what they were campaigning against and also included the notion that the Italians, the Irish and blacks were poor because they were drinking so much, rather than drinking so much because they were poor and underprivileged.

Elements sure, but society as a whole was racist, classist, and religiously intolerant. It would be hard to have any kind of movement that didn't have such characteristics.

Alcoholism was a major problem and had clear links with criminality and many health issues. Not just that but it was also linked to women's issues like domestic violence and poverty which is why some of Prohibition's strongest advocates were early Feminists.

So while there were bad sides to Prohibition that doesn't mean that the problem it sought to cure was any less real. It was a failure but that itself is not as bad as being purely a product of malice.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290432: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:34:24 PM

[up]

Anarchism would be completely laughable to link with Communism for mass human suffering were not for the whole "starting World War One thing."

...And the Spanish Civil War.

...And killing two US Presidents (the ones we don't remember).

...And ruining Punk

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290433: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:36:01 PM

[up][up] Yeah, actually you're right. Guess I just sorta let my love of the Rule of Three override my selection criteria.

[up] You, on the other hand, are not right.

Angry gets shit done.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#290434: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:37:14 PM

538 conveniently leaves out that many other countries are experiencing secularisation without the associated evangelicals. Almost like they're trying to push the fantasy that if only the religious right didn't exist, we atheist liberals would all finally see the light.

Life is unfair...
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#290435: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:41:06 PM

@Fourthspartan 56 While Anarchism's never been successful enough to cause Stalinism-level problems, it should be noted that the association between anarchism and terrorism is not wholly unjustified.

Mind you, I'm astonished to see Charles Phipps (who is very anti-authoritarian) criticizing anarchism that severely. Though Robretch is a literal anarchist if I understand correctly, so it isn't an effective form of argument.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#290436: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:44:33 PM

[up][up]That’s a very aggressive and disingenuous read.

They note that the rise is particularly strong now, they don’t claim that it’s the only cause, just that it’s a contributing factor.

Also the Americana religious right are helping drive people away from religion globally, they’re pretty toxic everywhere.

Personally I would like to see some real Socialist Christianity being put forward, it’s be a good contract and I just want to see the story of the moneylenders begin throw out of the temple get told a bunch.

[up]X4 You’re seriously blaming WW 1 on the single anarchist as opposed to the huge geopolitical factors that created a powder-keg? Also I don’t know the Spanish Civil War history but as a general rule I tend to assume that fascists are to blame for starting wars involving fascists.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 18th 2019 at 11:46:54 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290437: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:45:50 PM

Yeah, actually you're right. Guess I just sorta let my love of the Rule of Three override my selection criteria.

Understandable smile

Anarchism would be completely laughable to link with Communism for mass human suffering were not for the whole "starting World War One thing."

...And the Spanish Civil War.

...And killing two US Presidents (the ones we don't remember).

...And ruining Punk

World War One was started by Serbian nationalists, and even if they were anarchists there is little reason to lay it at the feet of anarchism. The web of alliances and imperial ambitions that dominated Euroupes powers at the time meant that a war was more or less inevitable.

Blaming them on the Spanish Civil War is frankly just gross, the civil war was supported by the nationalists revolting. And even if the anarchists had started the war they would be fighting fascists and thus it's rather messed up to consider them to be the aggressors here.

The killing two US presidents thing is even sillier then World War One, I mean, yes anarchists can assassinate people. But that's true of literally any ideology. It's not a reason to suggest any strong connection between human suffering and anarchism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290438: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:46:23 PM

[up][up][up] I'm a self-described 'Anarchist, if I'm being honest'.

Although I should also mention that in my heart of hearts when I profess the Anarchist slogan 'no unjust hierarchies!' there's a little asterisk behind it that links to a footnote that goes 'representative democracy is not defacto unjust'.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:47:44 PM

Angry gets shit done.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#290439: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:47:01 PM

The reason leftist Christians don't wear their Christianity on their sleeve is because it's been too badly tainted by the Christian Right. The association is just too strong now. At best, an unabashedly Christian leftist would just come off as #NotAllChristians. And we all know how beloved those movements are.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 18th 2019 at 7:47:27 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290440: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:48:18 PM

The reason leftist Christians don't wear their Christianity on their sleeve is because it's been too badly tainted by the Christian Right. The association is just too strong now. At best, an unabashedly Christian leftist would just come off as #Not All Christians.

Which is a shame, Liberation Theology is best theology.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 18th 2019 at 4:51:36 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#290441: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:51:03 PM

There are times when it’s a good thing to say “not all X”, but it comes down to the audience. Telling other X that they’re not representative of everyone and are in fact the asshole exception is good, “not all X” is bad when it’s used to try and cover for asshole X and throw at people being victimised by X.

You shout not all Christians at the religious right, not at the people the religious right are trying to kill.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 18th 2019 at 11:53:07 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290442: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:55:55 PM

And Anarchism owes a lot to the Diggers, who were motivated by their Christian theology as much as political conviction.

There's a common joke among anarchists that Jesus was the first Anarchist and like with every good anarchist, there was one bourgie capitalist waiting in the wings to sell him out to the state and another four to make bank off of writing his story.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:59:29 PM

Angry gets shit done.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#290443: Sep 18th 2019 at 4:59:47 PM

@Silas: Well, I disagree with articles pronouncing the American religious right as the cause for atheism, instead of, I don't know, people thinking for themselves. The ones who shun religion entirely because of politics usually end up switching back, as it was never a true conversion.

Edited by Grafite on Sep 19th 2019 at 2:04:00 PM

Life is unfair...
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290444: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:01:20 PM

[up]Anecdotal, but in my experience, not wrong.

Angry gets shit done.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#290445: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:04:31 PM

Hm, may I suggest moving this discussion to the Religion thread? I do wanna continue it, but I think it's better suited there.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290446: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:08:56 PM

I should note that:

1. I am a socialist Christian

2. I am a former Anarchist who left because of impracticality

My view on Anarchism is that a distrust of authority is a healthy thing for all societies and the respect for personal freedom, social freedom, and especially religious freedom (including the right to have none) is the basis for any moral society.

But I generally also note that blindly lashing out against authority does not help anyone and also believe anarchism can cover more...sinister inclinations and be used to hurt the public as a whole (see libertarianism and "drain the swamp" populism).

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 18th 2019 at 5:09:45 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290447: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:14:09 PM

I think distrust for authority is healthy to a point. It’s good to a point, but it becomes unhealthy.

They should have sent a poet.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#290448: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:17:55 PM

[up][up] Charles, just... Be aware that trying to include what Americans call Libertarianism in the Anarchist umbrella falls under fightin' words.

Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 2:18:04 PM

Angry gets shit done.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#290449: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:20:55 PM

[up]x6 Right, right, there is that other thing of the most charitable interpretation of Christians from outside groups being the sweet but severely intellectually disabled kid next door. They have a heart of gold, it's just a shame about they're so slow.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:21:07 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#290450: Sep 18th 2019 at 5:22:02 PM

In other news, there's some polling data that suggests Arizona could be in play for 2020. According to polls, Trump doesn't have a great approval rating, with 53% disapproving and most of those having a very unfavorable opinion of him. Apparently in polls he is dead even with Warren and Biden (Biden slightly edges him out by a 1% margin in some polls). Given that Arizona is usually comfortably written off as a red state this could be pretty big if the democrats manage to win.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:31:52 AM


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