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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Also I still don't see how "this person looking to use party infrastructure for his presidential bid should maybe stop antagonising the very same party he aims to benefit from" can even remotely be considered to be tribalism.
That's just common sense.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:55:01 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyFighteer just pointed out that building up a third party is basically impossible, unless you can make amendmends to the constitution.
And to gain the power to do so one has to collaborate with the current system. I don't really see that as hypocritical, more like a grudging necessity.
As for identity politics, I think people are way overblowing that too. Yeah, he made some spotty comments at some points, but recently he has clearly spoken out against racism in several interviews.
Edited by Forenperser on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:00:02 PM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianHere's the thing. It is true that:
- Bernie Sanders is a frequent critic of the Democratic Party.
- Bernie Sanders has enough clout that he could bring a significant shift to the Democratic Party were he to actually join it.
- Bernie Sanders will not join the Democratic Party outside of election years.
Imagine that a few students are working on a group project for their science class. Four of the the five students are doing an okay job, but the fifth student has done nothing but complain about the other four. The four work a bit harder, and eventually put together something good enough for a B at least. Number Five expects to get the same grade as the other four, despite having done no actual work on the project.
Sanders is that fifth student. For as much as he complains about the Dems, he sure doesn't want to help them improve.
That just strikes me as a lack of self-awareness. Would you say the same of a multi-billionaire who criticizes other billionaires for hoarding their wealth despite having barely ever donated a dime of his own money, and makes flimsy excuses and justifications when questioned on it?
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 18th 2019 at 3:04:46 PM
i'm tired, my friend![]()
When somebody acts like they have all the answers and keep thumping their outsider status while explicitly relying on something others have built (while simultaneously disparaging them) - yeah, that's pretty hypocritical.
I pointed out that I absolutely get the logic of why Sanders is running on the Democratic ticket. It makes sense.
The issue - for the umtenth time - is how he goes about it.
Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 18th 2019 at 9:03:14 PM
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyIt's quite obvious why he does it,he gets to be the underdog and everyone loves an underdog ,and so far it seems to be working,I imagine if he actually joined the party his diehard voters would see him as 'selling out' so its in his interest to keep up appearance of an underdog to attract voters
Edited by Ultimatum on Sep 18th 2019 at 7:14:32 PM
have a listen and have a link to my discord serverHonestly, in my opinion its the other way around.
By only working together with them temporarily, he at least makes it clear that it is only out of necessity.
Permanently joining them, despite not agreeing with them, that would be hypocritical in my eyes.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianBecause they’ve always been hyper focused on the presidency, the US does have some smaller minor parties, the Farm-Labour Party being one.
Also the constitution doesn’t require First Past the Post voting, any state could change its electoral system to a proportional one.
A third part that builds itself as a local power and pushes electoral reform at a local level could do great given enough time, but it has to accept that it won’t won’t win the presidency, the egos behind such parties are to big to accept that.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIndeed, a clear example of how even well educated and generally intelligent people can believe in very stupid things.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangHell he could simply stop shitting on the party establishment for not liking him.
No they don’t like that he’s not one of them, that’s fair, it’s fair that for their internal election they favour their own who have shown loyalty to the party.
If it’s a marriage of conscience for him he should recognise that it’s the same for the party and he shouldn’t shit on them for acting like he’s nothing but an occasional connivence, that’s how he treats them.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranHonestly, you could just say the first bit and that'd be enough.
Part of the reason I vastly prefer Warren to Sanders is that she actually understands that to get one's agenda done you have to work with people. So the fact that she's willing to work with the establishment instead of mindlessly demonizing them is a major plus.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang@silsaw: I think you are underestimating the systemic barriers to third parties. After all, many of these regional parties you mention have failed to break out on to the national stage, or secure the systemic changes that would allow them to do so. And even then these smaller parties still don’t hold many offices even in their local region.
And if I remember correctly the Farmer-Labor Party was absorbed into the Democratic Party, so your main example doesn’t really work either.
It’s not that I’m underestimating them so much as I’m pointing out that they’re not constitutional, they’re by and large institutional and tied to the very high cost of entry for politics.
That’s the big blocker to third party’s in the US, it’s not the voting system, it’s that one needs a huge amount of money to run for office (especially if one wants to run multiple candidates for multiple offices) and that only the Democrat and Republican establishments have such money.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranYa know what?
The notion that Sanders 'must' join the Democrats and be all nice and cosy with the establishment Democrats can go die in a fire.
Because you know what those Democrats (or their predecessors in the same faction) were doing just as Sanders was becoming politically active as a young Progressive?
Using the threat of the goddamn House Un-American Activities Committee and the Red Scare to purge their ranks of their Progressive and Socialist (well... SocDem) contingents until Liberals were the most left-leaning credible faction remaining in the party.
The Progressive faction of the Democrats didn't recover to be a credible force within the Democratic party until... *reads notes* A certain Senator from Vermont ran for the Democratic Primary in 2015 and showed young (and old) progressives that there is still room for them in the Democratic Party if they're willing to work with left-leaning Liberals to give voters an alternative to the right-leaning Liberal establishment Democrats.
Edited by Robrecht on Sep 18th 2019 at 10:20:24 AM
Angry gets shit done.Again, nobody's against Sanders using the Democrats' resources without being a party member, not even the Democrats, really. They're against him being an asshole towards the Democrats while also using the Democrats' resources without being a party member.
Like I said earlier. Do one or the other, but not both.
![]()
Room that he is not taking.
Again, Sanders, by joining the Dems, could inspire a lot of young progressives to run for Democratic seats, challenging either more moderate incumbents or even Republicans.
Buuuuuuuut he won't. He could, very easily, in fact. But he just can't be bothered.
It's like someone asking if they can crash at your place for a bit, so you let them. But then once they're there, they're always complaining about how messy your house is. And then they actively refuse to help clean up, even though their help would make the process faster.
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Sep 18th 2019 at 4:30:35 AM
i'm tired, my friend![]()
You can't be President unless you enter either the Democratic or Republican primaries. Not hypocrisy, but a lack of other pathways to the White House. What has the DNC done to be undeserving of criticism by the way?
That's just a blatant lie, I remember Heath Mello at the top of my head.
A Omaha candidate for mayor who was endorsed by Bernie. Anyway, point is, progressives are joining and running for the Democratic Party in droves nowadays, in large part due to the recent shift to the left in policy issues, which can be traced to Sanders' presidential race.
Life is unfair...I do have a few easy rebuttals to that. The first one is that the democrats were a very different party at the time, and frankly, Sanders might not even have been the same person at the time either.
Second one is that it doesn't really matter. It's not pragmatic for him to make enemies with the DNC.
Edited by Protagonist506 on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:33:11 AM
Leviticus 19:34

And if the 'Outsider' DOES get the big chair he or she will need to cooperate with one or the other parties to get ANYTHING done.