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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#290351: Sep 18th 2019 at 9:56:38 AM

I'm finding this line of criticism a quite odd one. Sure, he's popping in to the Democrats when he isn't one to run, but would y'all really rather him to run third party? Because I can see how that would end, and its not great.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#290352: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:06:20 AM

[up]Presumably they would rather he not run at all and just support Elizabeth Warren or something along those lines.

At least within this thread there is still a lot of bad blood between people here and Sanders because of perceptions that he was at least partially to blame for Clinton’s loss in 2016, and a general distaste for his more “populist” stylings.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#290353: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:18:16 AM

Personally also not a fan of him as an LGBT+ woman of color who doesn't appreciate the way he talks about issues relating to identity politics (i.e. sympathetic enough to give lip service, but ultimately dismissive).

Edited by AlleyOop on Sep 18th 2019 at 1:18:52 PM

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#290354: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:24:39 AM

Yeah his constant toting of having marched in the civil rights movement ONCE is pretty damning too.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#290355: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:24:44 AM

I'm finding this line of criticism a quite odd one. Sure, he's popping in to the Democrats when he isn't one to run, but would y'all really rather him to run third party? Because I can see how that would end, and its not great.

No, what people would appreciate is if he stopped undermining the Democrats whenever he isn't using them to become president.

Also "if you don't let me run on your ticket even though I'm not part of your party and never want to be, I'll split the vote" sounds very blackmail-ish.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 18th 2019 at 7:27:59 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#290356: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:30:06 AM

Going by Wikipedia, it seems like he did do a bit more than partake at one protest.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290357: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:35:07 AM

I'm finding this line of criticism a quite odd one. Sure, he's popping in to the Democrats when he isn't one to run, but would y'all really rather him to run third party? Because I can see how that would end, and its not great.

I'd rather he suck it up and just register as a Democrat. And then stop taking every opportunity to shit on Democrats whenever he's in front of a camera. That's what I want, personally.

Sanders needs to either join the team for realsies or actually f*ck off.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 18th 2019 at 11:35:31 AM

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AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#290358: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:36:06 AM

There's no doubt he does care about issues regarding demographic minorities and has done work in their favor, including having once been arrested for participating at a sit-in, which I appreciate, but nevertheless the way he speaks about such issues comes off as backwards and lacking perspective in this day and age.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#290359: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:40:59 AM

There's a decent paragraph on Bernie's activism so the people who keep say he took part in one protest are being rather..selective in with the truth,but yeah he should just stop trying to be the outsider on the inside and get with the party

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290360: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:44:08 AM

As progress is made, progressive goals move forward. Progressives have to move with them.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer was once considered an incredibly feminist series with innovative ideas. It has not aged well, because a lot of things that were cutting-edge feminist ideas in the 1990's are actually back-assward today.

Once upon a time, this was considered a radical liberal idea: "While I do agree that black people are an inferior subhuman species, I believe it demeans us as a people to keep them as slaves. They should all be released from bondage and returned to the continent from which we found them." Today? That is super-racist. The idea of what constitutes a progressive idea is constantly changing.

The problem with people, however, is that they're much slower to change. Yesterday's liberals become tomorrow's conservatives, not because they changed their position, but because the positions themselves changed and left those people behind. Joss Whedon was once a radical feminist and is now a gross dude making movies about his foot fetish despite being the exact same person today that he was back then.

Bernie Sanders probably does have very liberal ideas about race and gender. For the 70's. But that was a long time ago. Now he's the guy who whines about "identity politics" and thinks economics are color-blind. And you know what? He's probably the exact same guy that he was when he was marching in those rallies. But that guy's positions just aren't liberal enough anymore.

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Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#290361: Sep 18th 2019 at 10:57:20 AM

Sanders needs to either join the team for realsies or actually f*ck off.

Basically this.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#290362: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:12:42 AM

I'd rather he suck it up and just register as a Democrat. And then stop taking every opportunity to shit on Democrats whenever he's in front of a camera. That's what I want, personally.

Aaaaaaaaaand there it is.

I'm no fan of Sanders, Alley Oop hit the nail on the head on why he's no good. But I'm no fan of the Democratic Party as an institution, either. And this line of thinking is just so, so aggravating. Its an attitude of being beyond criticism, that to oppose the Republicans you have to join a "team" and then not criticize it at all.

But its not not above criticism. And of all the valid reasons to call out Bernie Sanders, "criticizes the Democratic Party" isn't one of them.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#290363: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:15:47 AM

Actually, it is, since he's counting on that party to support his candidacy and nomination. Now, he can talk all he wants about how he's building a "grassroots" movement, but like Obama said, "You didn't build that." He's capitalizing on the groundwork and election infrastructure laid before him by the Democratic Party apparatus, without which he could not possibly win a national election.

For as much as he criticizes that apparatus (and I am not denying some of the criticism), he should see how well he does without it. Sanders is trying to have his cake and eat it too: play up his "outsider" status despite 40+ years of riding along on the system he's railing against.

"You guys suck. Now help me get elected."

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 18th 2019 at 2:18:39 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#290364: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:17:04 AM

[up][up] It's not about him criticising the Democrats - it never was. Plenty of people criticise the Democrats. Plenty of Democrats criticise the Democrats.

What pisses people off about Sanders is that he often seems to actively try undermining the Democrats to thump his outsider status while simultaneously wanting to use them for his presidential bid.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Sep 18th 2019 at 8:18:20 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#290365: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:17:07 AM

I think it's more "criticizes the Democratic Party while simultaneously trying to utilize them".

The impression I get is Sanders should pick one or the other and stop doing both.

Double [nja]'d

Edited by sgamer82 on Sep 18th 2019 at 12:17:57 PM

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#290366: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:26:03 AM

[up][up][up]That honestly speaks more to the limitations and flaws of our current electoral system that he has to depend on the infrastructure of one of only two viable political parties that don’t even fully reflect his political program.

In a more sane system he would be a member of an American Labor Party with its own political infrastructure, but the system as it is now doesn’t allow for that, so he has to make do.

If the Democrats seriously didn’t want him running they could have easily locked him out, but I guess he is too popular to risk doing that.

[up][up]How exactly is he trying to undermine the Democrats?

Edited by Mio on Sep 18th 2019 at 2:28:31 PM

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#290367: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:38:44 AM

There is the distinct possibility that Trump might lose his biggest cheerleader in Israel. Wonder what that entails for Kushner's "great" peace plan.

ShadowWingLG Since: Dec, 2013
#290368: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:38:50 AM

Sure in a sane world we would have a Viable Third Party, the trouble is everybody who wants to BE that Third Party keeps going for the Big Chair rather than start lower and build up both ranks and a viable political network so that when finally the Third Party Candidate GETS to be President he or she will have a network of support in the terms of Governors, Reps and Senators to help get the Third Party's agenda and goals passed.

If Bernie wants to keep his Outsider and Independent cred he can't use the existing Democratic Party as a crutch since if he IS successful and gets the Big Chair he'll need to work and cooperate with the Dems to get ANYTHING done. Which will again tarnish that 'Outsider' Cred he seems so fond off.

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#290369: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:41:26 AM

[up][up][up]

You know, you could just check the discussion people just had? People went over the issues with Sanders, so this question seems a tad odd.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#290370: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:41:36 AM

I can't help but feel there's a middle ground between "undying party loyalty" and "blatant opportunism", but I also don't think any of the people accusing Sanders of the latter actually support the former.

You can critique an organization for any legitimate flaws it has (and those will always exist, because they're run by human beings) while understanding why they're necessary and thinking a certain amount of solidarity is necessary.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#290371: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:42:37 AM

Yeah Bernie could build a viable third party, even under the current system.

But he’d have to give up his dream of being president, the party he’d found might well one day win the presidency, but it would be decades after he founded it.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#290372: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:43:29 AM

Honestly, fuck tribalism. And fuck the two party system. I welcome outsiders, which is why I like Sanders.

That he has to join the Democrats to even have a chance at getting nominated is a damning indictment of modern society.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#290373: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:44:47 AM

Every attempt to build a viable third party in the U.S. has failed, unless that party took the place of a major party when the latter fell apart (see: Whigs). This is because national elections are fundamentally unwinnable by any third party thanks to our system. A third party cannibalizes support from the party nearest to it in ideology, helping the other party win.

The most a third party can do is contribute to the destruction of one of the major parties, hoping to take its place amid the ashes.

To fix this, you need to amend the Constitution. Anything else is a pipe dream.

Edited by Fighteer on Sep 18th 2019 at 2:48:47 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#290374: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:47:14 AM

[up][up]Well, that's just entirely faulty logic. "Outsider" does not automatically equal "good".

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#290375: Sep 18th 2019 at 11:48:55 AM

[up] That's not the only reason I like him. Just one of them.

I (as an outsider myself I might add, in my country there are a whole bunch of different parties) just find this Two-Party System of the US total bullshit.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian

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