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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290176: Sep 15th 2019 at 3:55:07 PM

[up] I’d argue the best option is cleaning house and then rebranding.

Eliminating the agency and replacing it with an identical one is a lot of work for very little pay off, and having all those functions in different places proved to be very inefficient prior to 9/11. Hold some hearings, fire the leadership and anyone else who behaved criminally, and then change the name to CIS or DHS Police or something.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290177: Sep 15th 2019 at 3:56:34 PM

Frankly, think the Department of Homeland Security is a problem and should be broken up into multiple agencies with some elements dissolved as the wastes of resources there are. But if I were to do it I would:

  • Dissolve Ice
  • Fire everybody involved in the human rights abuse and ban them from any job related to immigration
  • Make a new agency with a charter that explains in simple terms its job is to protect and process immigration
  • Move the resources for human trafficking into the FBI or their own agency so the immigration and criminal prosecution sections do not intersect. Hell, make it the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Human Protection
  • Decriminalize border crossing as a whole and make it a matter of deportation or fines.
  • Dramatically reduce the power and increase restrictions of immigration control so its not an antagonist service
  • Rename it with a strong emphasis it is not remotely the same agency.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 15th 2019 at 3:58:08 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#290178: Sep 15th 2019 at 3:57:36 PM

Part of the problem with ICE is that it isn’t just run by shit people, large parts of it are staffed by terrible people, abolishing ICE has the added advantage of making everyone who works for ICE unemployed, thus removing them from positions of power which they can use to abuse and harm others.

The few good eggs within ICE can find new jobs, but without abolishing the agency there will be a lot of bureaucratic inertia when it comes to people and culture, to reform ICE a blank slate is needed. You don’t just want to remove the blatant criminals, you also want rid of the sneaky criminals, the enablers, the supporters, the maliciously incompetent and the “not my problem” lot. Those people aren’t easy to remove without just scrapping the organisation.

Yes firing literally every single ICE employee would have the same effect, but it’s much more logistically difficult if the organisation still formally exists.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 15th 2019 at 11:00:43 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290179: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:01:51 PM

Frankly that seems like tearing down your whole house and building a new one just because you found a few broken beams. ICE is a huge agency, only like a third of it is actively involved in deportation.

You’d get the job done far quicker just by replacing the broken beams.

I’d also point out that there’s a reason DHS exists. Splitting everything up would basically be a return to the pre-9/11 status quo, which wasn’t particularly efficient or organized. Having all of the cross-border stuff in one place makes sense, just like how domestic stuff is handled by the FBI and overseas stuff is the CIA. Highly decentralized law enforcement agencies do not do good work.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 15th 2019 at 4:06:02 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#290180: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:10:09 PM

That’s going to be the determining factor here, are we dealing with just a few rotten beams or something that’s broken from the top down to the foundations?

I doubt there’s anything salvageable in the deportations part of ICE, it’s possible that other sections of ICE could be salvaged in large part and moved wholesale into a renamed organisation.

Edited by Silasw on Sep 15th 2019 at 11:11:30 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#290181: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:11:04 PM

Trump lost the popular vote by 2.1%. The only president to lose the popular margin by a larger margin was John Quincy Adams back in 1824, and he got steam-rolled in his re-election by Andrew Jackson

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290182: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:18:28 PM

[up][up] Hence the need for some kind of inquest or official review.

But realistically, like I said, ICE is a big agency. There’s something like 17,000 officers plus civilian personnel. ERO has 4-6,000 officers plus civilian personnel. Even if we’re assuming the other parts of the agency have a lot of corruption as well, which I don’t think is likely, we’re still talking a good half or two thirds of the agency keeping their jobs. At that point you’re just wasting your effort going the “destroy and rebuild” route, it would be less work for the exact same result to simply rebrand the agency.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 15th 2019 at 4:20:01 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290183: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:24:38 PM

We also get into:

  • What is the institutional culture like this.
  • How many of these people are fully onboard with what ICE was doing?
  • How many of the people in non-immigration related matters collaborated with the immigration ones?

An agency is often far more intertwined than people think.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290184: Sep 15th 2019 at 4:33:03 PM

[up] You fix the institutional culture by firing the leadership, not the rank and file.

And again, 17,000 people. They employ forensic accountants and evidence technicians, counterterrorism specialists, narcotics detectives, hundreds of different kinds of officers. If they got reassigned to a deportation team and brutalized people, then sure, they should be fired. But we’ve seen officers in those other parts of ICE speak out against the agency. Hell, there was that petition signed by officers in HSI denouncing immigration raids because the connotations “ICE” had because of them made it way more difficult for them to do their jobs.

There’s no reason to fire people who didn’t behave unethically.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 15th 2019 at 4:34:40 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290186: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:24:50 PM

My biggest fear about disbanding ICE is that the people responsible for human rights violations won't necessarily just be fired and go away forever. They might just get new jobs in other departments where they can continue doing human rights violations.

If "ICE, The Organization" takes the fall, the individual actors responsible just move on to their next terrible opportunity. That's always how it works in the corporate world. "Oops, Jewels N' Stuff turned out to be using slave labor, that's a bit of a whoopsy-doodle! Better fire 50,000 employees, give million-dollar severances to all of the people at fault, and then give the worst of the lot cushy new jobs where they can bring their brilliant ideas to the rest of Corporate America!"

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 15th 2019 at 7:27:11 AM

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MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#290187: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:26:17 PM

Which is why its important to identify these actors and blacklist them. The questions is if its possible and if so the post-Trump administration is willing to do so.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#290188: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:30:07 PM

It's also worth nothing that the rank and file of ICE aren't exactly innocent.

Despite my comparison, ICE isn't a department store or something. They're a law enforcement agency, and the actual law officers working there have been doing some pretty ugly shit.

But there's a safety net there, too. If they lose their jobs, they'll just trickle into various law enforcement agencies at the local, state, and federal levels.

I guess my question is, for the purpose of cleaning up this problem, which is easier to deal with: one agency with a million awful people in it, or a million awful people disseminated among thousands of agencies across the country?

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290189: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:31:17 PM

I dunno, you think they could be sent to Guantanamo instead?

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#290190: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:36:45 PM

@cookingcat

Makes you think whether or not Trump is just going to blindly carpet bomb who he thinks was behind the attack on the oil.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#290191: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:52:50 PM

I guess my question is, for the purpose of cleaning up this problem, which is easier to deal with: one agency with a million awful people in it, or a million awful people disseminated among thousands of agencies across the country?

One is easier, but the second is a far more ethical method to deal with the issues.

[up] Doubtful, Trump is all bark and not bite. He wants to look like a hawk to his hawkish voters, but it's painfully obvious that his Isolationism is the most consistent thing of him.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Sep 15th 2019 at 9:17:13 AM

Watch me destroying my country
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#290192: Sep 15th 2019 at 6:53:38 PM

[up]x4 I'd say the latter makes it easier to keep these people on the straight and narrow, because now they're working alongside actually ethical people, but that heavily depends on what agencies they end up at and what the work environment there is.

Edited by HailMuffins on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:53:52 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290193: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:07:55 PM

Doubtful, Trump is all bark and bite. He wants to look like a hawk to his hawkish voters, but it's painfully obvious that his Isolationism is the most consistent thing of him.

Quite, and with Bolton gone there is no major hawk in the White House to push him towards war.

It could still happen but I think it's less likely.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#290194: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:20:17 PM

Let's not get too cozy. Pompeo is a total hawk. He's just a bootlicker first and foremost and won't push it like Bolton did if Trump changes his mind.

More importantly, what is Sean Hannity saying right now.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#290195: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:23:02 PM

Let's not get too cozy. Pompeo is a total hawk. He's just a bootlicker first and foremost and won't push it like Bolton did if Trump changes his mind.

More importantly, what is Sean Hannity saying right now.

That's why I wasn't counting him, he's a Trump loyalist before he's a hawk. If Trump says no, which is plausible, then he'll defer to his final word.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#290196: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:34:00 PM

Trump is a sabre rattler through and through. He won't go to war unless circumstances or his handlers convince him he has to.

Anti-vax protesters shut down the California Legislature on Friday after one of them apparently threw menstrual blood from a hygiene product over the Senate floor from the viewing balcony and over several Senators.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#290197: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:39:01 PM

Anti-vaxxers are just the worst. Far as I'm concerned, every single one of them shares responsibility for each kid who dies from measles or something.

Edited by M84 on Sep 15th 2019 at 10:41:11 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#290198: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:45:55 PM

This is where I feel like I'm taking Crazy Pills.

We just got OUT of a war with Yemen.

We were drone striking and arming the Saudi Arabians all the time to conquer that country.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#290199: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:49:47 PM

M84:anti vax Is one of the few área where US Is More anti intelectual than latino América, something it baffle me

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#290200: Sep 15th 2019 at 7:54:46 PM

I mean, technically speaking we’re still at war in Yemen. The 2001 AUMF says we can send our military anywhere Al-Qaeda and “associated forces” are found, and we’re still providing logistical support to the Saudi coalition there.

Of course, aerial refueling and drone strikes don’t exactly fit the classic definition of a war.

They should have sent a poet.

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