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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#288876: Aug 29th 2019 at 3:40:40 AM

I even got Tulsi Gabbard ads here on this very page, lol.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#288877: Aug 29th 2019 at 4:51:57 AM

I'd like to add "passage-ability" to that list. One of the two reasons that bugs me about Warren is that AFAIK none of her plans contains a "how do I get this through Congress" provision, and without that all these highfalutin' concepts are nothing more than pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking hot air.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#288878: Aug 29th 2019 at 4:54:00 AM

I mean, if we manage to take the Senate and keep the House next year, that's effectively a non-issue.

i'm tired, my friend
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#288879: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:03:57 AM

There is no reason to take that for granted. Nevermind that not all Democrats (c.f Joe Manchin) will support these plans, most likely.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#288880: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:31:56 AM

There's also no reason to assume that a Warren administration wouldn't get anything done. Or that Blue Dogs like Manchin represent the majority of the Democratic Party.

Or to assume, finally, that Warren wouldn't figure something out rather than hope that Rs eventually come around.

Like, I know it's hypocritical of me to criticize someone for excessive pessimism, but come on.

i'm tired, my friend
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#288881: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:34:35 AM

Plus didn't Warren have plans for using Executive Orders similarly to Trump where she could if she had to?

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#288882: Aug 29th 2019 at 5:47:15 AM

I debated including "pass-ability" but I ultimately decided against it because

a) it's inherently political, and since the whole idea of subjecting a candidate's policies to some sort of examination that is organised by the DNC is already a powder keg adding in pass-ability is like chucking in a few lit matches.

b) I wanted to try and keep things positive - what can we do rather than what we can't do, and pass-ability is generally all about "we can't do X because of X reason".

But I do appreciate pass-ability is a concern to many people. Ultimately, I think what I would like to see is candidates list out their policies in order of priority - such that if something or someone starts to gum up the works we have an idea what might be dropped in order that the important policies gets the full attention of the executive branch to twist arms, use reconciliation, etc etc.

Edited by singularityshot on Aug 29th 2019 at 6:59:11 AM

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#288883: Aug 29th 2019 at 7:20:38 AM

I'd like to add "passage-ability" to that list. One of the two reasons that bugs me about Warren is that AFAIK none of her plans contains a "how do I get this through Congress" provision, and without that all these highfalutin' concepts are nothing more than pie-in-the-sky wishful thinking hot air.
That's true of basically every candidate, though, no? Retaining the House and retaking the Senate is well within the realm of possibility in 2020, so I feel like focusing on achieving that over "okay, but what if you can't?" is fair.

Besides, I don't really think there's going to be much daylight between candidates on the "but what if you can't?" question. You beg, borrow, and steal to get every possible vote you can in Congress. You do as much as you can with purely executive authority — directives to agencies, executive orders, appointing actual competent people who are there to do their jobs instead of cronies who are there to soak as much cash from the position as possible, etc. That's really all any president can do without controlling Congress.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#288884: Aug 29th 2019 at 8:24:36 AM

Well, no, it's a particular problem for Warren because so much of her position depends on these policy proposals. Most other candidates are much thinner on policy/their "cases" for themselves do not rely as much on policy proposals where the passage-ability is a problem.

I also feel that this thread has somewhat unrealistic expectations of both Congress and Democratic candidates running for it, as the Senate elections and the policy stances of any newby Democratic Senator (for example) are seldom discussed or just assumed to work in the way we'd find convenient.

Edited by SeptimusHeap on Aug 29th 2019 at 5:25:57 PM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#288885: Aug 29th 2019 at 8:39:54 AM

Warren has passed major legislation before, such as the law establishing the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. She's got quite a bit of experience with that process. I have confidence that she'd be able to make quite a few good things happen with a friendly Congress.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#288886: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:01:41 AM

Well, no, it's a particular problem for Warren because so much of her position depends on these policy proposals. Most other candidates are much thinner on policy/their "cases" for themselves do not rely as much on policy proposals where the passage-ability is a problem.

I also feel that this thread has somewhat unrealistic expectations of both Congress and Democratic candidates running for it, as the Senate elections and the policy stances of any newby Democratic Senator (for example) are seldom discussed or just assumed to work in the way we'd find convenient.

This still runs into the fundamental reality that we need the Senate to do anything, so having Warren explain how she would get her plans done without a friendly senate makes as much sense as asking a cyclist how they plan to cycle without any legs.

Yes, Warren's plans would mostly be impossible without a Friendly Senate. But that should be obvious, I don't think there's anything Warren needs to answer about this.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#288887: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:08:49 AM

"X can only do it if they have a Friendly Senate" is the "It dies to removal" argument of politics.

Yeah. That's how our government works. The existence of checks and balances does not make Warren a bad candidate, and I'd love to hear an explanation for how Biden or Sanders would be able to easily circumvent Congress and the Courts in her place.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 29th 2019 at 10:10:32 AM

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singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#288888: Aug 29th 2019 at 9:39:01 AM

I'll accept that Warren may not have all of her plans play out should she win the Presidency. But that's okay for me (even though I don't get a vote in merry old England). I just like seeing someone who has confidence in her plans because she's thought them through and has faith in planning and rigour. It cuts through the empty plaudits and slogans other candidates may have - you know there is something substantial backing that up.

The follow-up question on pass-ability is probably more important however. Ultimately I suppose you are asking "Does Warren have a plan B" (and knowing her C, D and Z are not out the question, but I digress). And that's more important for her as she's so invested into Plan A that simply winging it is almost off brand.

If the intransigence comes from across the aisle would she compromise or would she call for "nuclear options". If it's the former most progressives would write her off instantly as "another kowtowing Democrat that the Republicans will just walk all over". If it's the latter (i.e. bye bye filibuster) then moderates will be wringing their hands over "what happens when the Republicans are back in charge and there is no filibuster to stop their regressive policies?"

Equally, if the intransigence is from within the party, is she open to moderation just to get something done or will she play hardball?

The obvious contrast would be with Biden. He got mocked for suggesting that Republicans can compromise and that he can work with them, but it hasn't been fatal for his campaign. Leaving aside the gaffe around working with segregationists (which is a separate issue entirely) I think the reason why he is able to make such a banal statement is that we get the feeling he isn't that invested in his policy positions, so it's not a major blow if the Republicans do block him. On the flip side if Warren said that she could get Republicans to compromise to get her agenda passed you'd be asking what the heck she was smoking and where you could get some for yourself.

Edited by singularityshot on Aug 29th 2019 at 9:41:00 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#288889: Aug 29th 2019 at 10:36:56 AM

Just saw a headline from 538, the senate election for Georgia (the senator up in 2022 is resigning) actually is in 2020, so both Georgia seats are up.

The relevant Georgia law says that the special election takes place at the next regularly scheduled election, but that means for the state not for the seat, so both Georgia seats are up for grabs next year.

Fingers crossed someone talks Abrams into running.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#288890: Aug 29th 2019 at 10:58:16 AM

And in still more "Fuck you, got mine!" news, the Trump administration is rolling back methane regulations, again enacted under Obama.

Though I now have to wonder if it falls under the former category, or "Fuck Obama!" in terms of motivation.

The stated reason, however, is because "Oh, the industry already cares about addressing these issues, so there's no reason to legally bind them on it!"

Carbon dioxide is the most substantial greenhouse gas, and methane is the second. However, methane has 80 times the heat-trapping capability of carbon dioxide during the first 20 years in the atmosphere and accounts for nearly 10% of the country’s greenhouse gas emissions.

“EPA’s proposal delivers on President Trump’s executive order and removes unnecessary and duplicative regulatory burdens from the oil and gas industry,” EPA Administrator Andrew Wheeler said in a statement.

“The Trump Administration recognizes that methane is valuable, and the industry has an incentive to minimize leaks and maximize its use. Since 1990, natural gas production in the United States has almost doubled while methane emissions across the natural gas industry have fallen by nearly 15%. Our regulations should not stifle this innovation and progress.”

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#288891: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:07:16 AM

Edit: nevermind, misread.

Edited by NativeJovian on Aug 29th 2019 at 2:07:39 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#288892: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:22:13 AM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/08/29/day-952/

    Day 952: "A troubling pattern of corruption." 

1/ The EPA plans to rollback regulation of methane emissions – a major contributor to climate change – by eliminating the federal requirements that oil and gas companies install technology to monitor and limit leaks from wells, tanks, and pipeline networks. Trump administration officials suggested that the oil and gas industry can't profit from leaks, they already has an economic incentive to limit their methane emissions. Several of the world's largest fossil fuel companies, however, opposed the rollback and urged the Trump administration to leave the current standards in place. (New York Times / Washington Post / Wall Street Journal / The Guardian / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/trump-admin-roll-back-rules-climate-changing-methane-n1047656

2/ The Justice Department inspector general found that James Comey violated FBI policies for sharing memos that detailed his interactions with Trump. Comey won't be charged. The inspector general determined that the memos were official records, which describe how Trump pressed Comey for loyalty and asked him to stop an investigation into Michael Flynn. (Washington Post / NPR / USA Today / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.npr.org/2019/08/29/755402701/doj-comey-violated-policy-on-his-trump-memos-but-wont-be-prosecuted

3/ The House Judiciary Committee will investigate Trump's proposal to hold the 2020 G7 meeting at his Trump National Doral Miami golf resort, calling the move "only the latest in a troubling pattern of corruption and self-dealing" by Trump. Jerrold Nadler said that requiring foreign leaders to pay to stay at a Trump-owned property would be a direct violation of the Constitution’s emoluments clause. (NBC News / Politico / Washington Post)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-panel-announces-probe-trump-s-plan-host-g-7-n1047536

4/ Trump attacked Puerto Rico as it braces for Hurricane Dorian. He called the island "one of the most corrupt places on earth" and San Juan Mayor Carmen Yulin Cruz "incompetent." Trump then proclaimed himself "the best thing that's ever happened to Puerto Rico." (ABC News / CNBC / Washington Post)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/28/trump-unloads-on-puerto-rico-as-tropical-storm-dorian-threatens-island.html

5/ Trump complained that Fox News "isn't working for us anymore" because the network is not sufficiently loyal to him. Trump urged his followers to "start looking for a new News Outlet" as an alternative to Fox. Several Fox News personalities, however, pushed back, saying: "Fox News isn't supposed to work for you," and "We don't work for you." (Politico / CNN / Daily Beast)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/media/trump-attacks-fox/index.html

6/ MSNBC host Lawrence O'Donnell retracted his claim Russian oligarchs had co-signed Trump's Deutsche Bank loans. O'Donnell said that statements from a single source weren't ready to be reported, because he did not go through the network's "rigorous verification and standards process" before repeating it, and that "had it gone through that process, I would not have been permitted to report it." (Politico / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/msnbc-s-lawrence-o-donnell-says-he-should-not-have-n1047516

7/ Ivanka Trump and Jared Kushner discussed the possibility of replacing Pence with Nikki Haley on the 2020 Republican ticket. Haley, meanwhile, tweeted out a denial of the "false rumors" — which hadn't leaked beyond the White House — that she wanted to join Trump on the 2020 ticket. (Raw Story / Political Wire)

https://www.rawstory.com/2019/08/jared-kushner-and-ivanka-trump-behind-rumors-of-replacing-pence-on-2020-ticket-axios-reporter/

8/ Trump aides admitted that he lied about the "high-level" trade talks with Chinese officials in order to boost markets. Aides privately conceded that the calls didn't happen the way Trump said they did, and because Trump wanted to project optimism, he conflated comments from China's vice premier with direct communications from the Chinese. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/politics/donald-trump-2020-election-pardons-walls-victories/index.html

9/ Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin floated the idea of offering bonds with maturities of 50 to 100 years. Mnuchin said the idea was under "very serious consideration" after a meeting with White House economic adviser Larry Kudlow earlier this month when the yield curve briefly inverted. (Bloomberg)

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-08-29/mnuchin-eyes-100-year-debt-wall-street-would-just-as-soon-forget

10/ Trump is considering a plan to block more than $250 million in foreign aid to Ukraine. Since 2014, the U.S. has provided Ukraine with more than $1 billion in security assistance to bolster the country's military, which faces an ongoing conflict with separatists that the Pentagon believes are backed by Moscow. (CNN / Politico)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/politics/trump-ukraine-military-assistance/index.html

11/ Former Secretary of Defense James Mattis said he had "no choice but to leave" the Trump administration after Trump announced plans to withdraw the U.S. military from Syria. Mattis has given a series of interviews and public statements in recent weeks indirectly criticizing Trump, but he has refused to directly address Trump's character and fitness for office, citing a "duty of silence" to the administration. "When you leave an administration over clear policy differences," Mattis said, "you need to give the people who are still there as much opportunity as possible to defend the country." (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/29/politics/james-mattis-no-choice-but-to-leave-trump-administration/index.html

12/ Trump made 48 false claims between Tuesday and Sunday last week. He has averaged 7.7 false claims per day since July 8. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/08/28/politics/fact-check-trump-weekly-tally-48-false-claims/index.html

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#288893: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:30:01 AM

5/ Trump complained that Fox News "isn't working for us anymore" because the network is not sufficiently loyal to him. Trump urged his followers to "start looking for a new News Outlet" as an alternative to Fox. Several Fox News personalities, however, pushed back, saying: "Fox News isn't supposed to work for you," and "We don't work for you." (Politico / CNN / Daily Beast)

(more popcorn)

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#288894: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:35:50 AM

Anyone want to lay any bets on the cocks here?

Edited by fredhot16 on Aug 29th 2019 at 11:38:29 AM

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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#288895: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:48:40 AM

Just saw a headline from 538, the senate election for Georgia (the senator up in 2022 is resigning) actually is in 2020, so both Georgia seats are up.

The relevant Georgia law says that the special election takes place at the next regularly scheduled election, but that means for the state not for the seat, so both Georgia seats are up for grabs next year.

Fingers crossed someone talks Abrams into running.

Abrams has already confirmed that she won't run, for either seat.

No, I have no idea what she's playing at.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#288896: Aug 29th 2019 at 11:54:13 AM

We do have a possible star though. Jon Ossof, the one who just barely lost the most expensive House election in 2017, is considering running for one of the open seats.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#288897: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:01:14 PM

Yeah I saw afterwards, she’s said she wants to help though, it’s possible that after having an election victory stolen from her she doesn’t have it in her to try again right now, or she may just believe that a senate seat isn’t for her.

Fingers crossed Dems can put out two strong candidates, if nothing else the Republicans being on the defensive in Georgia should drain money from elsewhere.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#288898: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:07:25 PM

I may well be wrong, but I think Ossoff's candidacy and performance in that election may have benefited more from it being the first chance to lash out against Trump than Ossoff himself or his following in the state.

I hope I’m wrong though and wish him luck if he does run.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#288899: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:23:20 PM

I wonder if Trump could actually get his cult off of Fox...?

I doubt it though, their ratings will stay solid.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#288900: Aug 29th 2019 at 12:27:37 PM

There actually is at least one news network just as pro Trump as Fox. Trump has even tweeted them before: One American News.


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