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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#288126: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:12:18 AM

Leftist lolbertarians can manage small farming communes where they grow organic stuff and "herbs" (by which I mean marijuana and kratom) and not much else.

Rightwing lolbertarians hunker down in cabins and bunkers with their stockpile of guns and ammo and canned food.

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#288127: Aug 19th 2019 at 4:42:53 AM

The main difference I think is between living in a network of communities with a small government and living in a network of individuals with a small government. Right-wing libertarianism holds this romantic vision of semi-autonomous ranchers who are mostly self-sufficient when it comes to resources and defence (even they admit trade would be a thing) - and that the magic hand of the free market would always fill in where the state currently provides, whereas left-wing libertarianism is more like a patchwork society of communes and/or co-ops where every individual cell is democratically run and there'd probably be trading between specialised co-ops eg agricultural and industrial co-ops or manufacturing and service co-ops.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Aug 19th 2019 at 1:24:54 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#288128: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:09:05 AM

Even if the Free Market did correct itself, it would in the Social Darwinist sense.

Libertarians refuse to acknowledge or skip over the massive suffering that is preventable by NOT doing it that way.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#288129: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:14:10 AM

Basically Senator Armstrong is a libertarian, except he is honest enough to take it to Social Darwinist levels.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#288130: Aug 19th 2019 at 6:53:11 AM

ThinkProgress: Terrible news for Trump on the economy in new WSJ/NBC poll

Trump's handling of the economy has been one of his few positive polling figures up until recently, but his net is down to 3% in the latest poll (49% approve, 46% disapprove), its lowest ever. Among the 9% of voters who approve of his handling of the economy but disapprove of him overall, 73% prefer a Democratic candidate in 2020 versus 5% who would vote for Trump.

More tellingly, net support for free trade is up to 37% (64% for, 27% against) among the general populace. The takeaway from this is that Trump's trade war is biting him in the ass when it comes to his public approval rating. He's doing a great deal to sabotage his own reelection prospects.


The funny thing about this vis-a-vis the earlier conversation is that those hardcore Libertarian types should, if they are being ideologically consistent, hate tariffs and bitterly oppose Trump's actions.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 19th 2019 at 9:58:55 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#288131: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:09:12 AM

[up]Thing is, the economy was probably on the rise from Obama style policies anyway, given that it takes time for changes to take effect.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#288132: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:12:57 AM

It sucks that the economy might be tanking again, but at least maybe the public will blame the right people for it, if this poll is any indication.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#288133: Aug 19th 2019 at 7:21:46 AM

All we're seeing right now is indicators of recession, but those indicators have been pretty reliable, historically speaking. Krugman, NYT

As stated above, most of the "Trump economy" is carryover from the work Obama did. One of the tragedies of public knowledge is that economic effects of policy have a significant latency of anywhere from months to years, and this gets our cause-and-effect associations all screwed up. We've been fortunate not to have any major catastrophes during the Trump years given how incompetent he and his cronies are at actual governance, but that may not last.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#288134: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:05:50 AM

The four most effective messages a poll tested in Wisconsin against Trump were all on economic issues.

1. The Trump Tax Cuts gives tax breaks to companies that ship jobs overseas, resulting in the closing of five GM plants and costing thousands of jobs.

2. Trump's trade war with China has devastated Wisconsin farmers while corporate farms get the most bailout money, which was borrowed from China.

3. Trump promised to reduce spending, but has given huge tax breaks to the wealthy and corporations while the deficit is expected to grow a trillion dollars this year.

4. Trump promised to repeal NAFTA but is now working with Wall Street and corporations to to make a new NAFTA which will hurt workers.

Other polling data of interest from the Badger State:

Warren has the highest favorability rating and the highest number of support among Democrats, leading with 29%.

  • Independents (35% of the electorate) lean Trump 43-41%
  • 2016 third-party voters (19% of undecided voters)lean Democrat 41-18%
  • 2016 nonvoters (21% of undecided voters)lean Democrat by 45-30%

Immigration (20%) and healthcare (16%) were the highest priorities among voters, with Republicans and independents prioritizing the former and Democrats the latter.

49% of voters think Trump is a racist.

"Messages about Trump as a phony populist who’s governed as a plutocrat are the most effective. The most persuasive message tied Trump’s proposed Medicare cuts to his tax cut for the rich, but several messages were close behind: Trump using his office to enrich himself and his family business, Trump’s failed trade war with China, and Trump’s record on outsourcing. There was also one non-economic message that was very effective: a reminder that Trump has been credibly accused of sexual assault by more than a dozen women."

The most effective pro-Trump messages were on jobs and unemployment. Independents were also more receptive to nativist massaging.

On healthcare, Democrats were slightly more support of Medicare for All as opposed to a Public Option, but Independents were very negative towards Medicare for All.

Messages discussing reparations were negatively received by almost all parties. Messages that spoke of "alleviating racial inequality by ending discrimination and investing in communities of color" however, was among the most well received massages of all tested.

"No clear winners on immigration, climate, and guns. On these three issues, the difference in support between the more progressive positions (decriminalizing border crossings/health care for the undocumented, Green New Deal, gun licensing) and the more moderate positions (pathway to citizenship, investing in clean energy, background checks) were within the margin of error."

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#288135: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:30:25 AM

Leftist lolbertarians can manage small farming communes where they grow organic stuff and "herbs" (by which I mean marijuana and kratom) and not much else.

Rightwing lolbertarians hunker down in cabins and bunkers with their stockpile of guns and ammo and canned food.

I thought rightwing lolbertarians made millions selling duck calls and then making a TV show about it.

They're also very adept at managing small farm subsidies.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#288136: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:37:55 AM

[up]For all their protestations and contempt for society and its laws, those very same laws and society are what give'em their bread and butter.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#288137: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:41:43 AM

That's part of the point. Lolbertarians are fundamentally hypocrites: benefiting from manipulating the very society whose principles they decry. Of course, looked at another way, they're obeying their philosophy perfectly, since a parasite is perfectly happy to benefit from its host while manipulating that host to accept it.

Libertarianism is all about affinity fraud, and its tendency to reject regulations and other laws that might prevent fraud makes it a natural haven for fraudsters.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 19th 2019 at 11:43:15 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#288138: Aug 19th 2019 at 8:42:18 AM

They basically want the freedom to take every advantage they can in order to get ahead.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#288139: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:27:55 PM

Why thousands of Americans come together to hear Trump speak

Listen up, Trumpophobes. It’s not so hard to understand the president’s appeal. Try going to one of his rallies and, instead of turning up your nose at the Walmart people, listen and learn.

The abuse of President Trump and his supporters that passes for analysis from his opponents is a strategic error.

The more abuse, the more Trump’s base is energized to turn out on Election Day.

At his Thursday night rally to launch his 2020 New Hampshire campaign, he broke Elton John’s all-time attendance record with a crowd of 11,500 inside the Southern New Hampshire University Arena. It wasn’t just a Trumpian boast but a number confirmed to reporters by the Manchester deputy fire marshal. An overflow crowd of 8,000 people watched outside on a giant screen.

...

“You really feel he’s talking to you,” says Nick Isgro, 38, who drove almost three hours from Waterville, Maine, with his 14-year-old son.

“He’s the most powerful man in the world, yet he doesn’t feel out of reach. He feels like he’s one of us.”

This is Trump’s secret sauce, which his antagonists can’t feel because they hate him so.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#288140: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:30:41 PM

~Soban

I question why we should be in any way obligated to take an article that starts with the words "Listen up, Trumpophobes" even remotely seriously.

Incidentally, how's the New York Post regarded as a source?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#288141: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:32:28 PM

We get that Trump supporters feel like Trump is "one of us" and in certain important ways (racism, xenophobia, etc.) ge is. We also just get that in other important ways he is not and that shouldn't be hard to understand either.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 19th 2019 at 2:33:45 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#288142: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:32:50 PM

"Trumpophobe"? That's a new one.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#288143: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:33:58 PM

> Listen up, Trumpophobes

k I'm listening

> it’s not so hard to understand the president’s appeal

We know that,anything else?

> Try going to one of his rallies

no thanks

> intead of turning up your nose at the Walmart people, listen and learn.

I dont even shop at Walmart!

> The abuse of President Trump and his supporters that passes for analysis from his opponents is a strategic error.

It's not

> The more abuse, the more Trump’s base is energized to turn out on Election Day.

Great

> At his Thursday night rally to launch his 2020 New Hampshire campaign, he broke Elton John’s all-time attendance record with a crowd of 11,500 inside the Southern New Hampshire University Arena. It wasn’t just a Trumpian boast but a number confirmed to reporters by the Manchester deputy fire marshal. An overflow crowd of 8,000 people watched outside on a giant screen.

yay for him

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#288144: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:41:13 PM

>I question why we should be in any way obligated to take an article that starts with the words "Listen up, Trumpophobes" even remotely seriously.

>Incidentally, how's the New York Post regarded as a source?

It was an interesting read I found on Google/Bing news. Much like many others, I've not gone to any of his rallies, even when he came to the town I was living in at the time.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#288145: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:41:30 PM

I love how holding adults in contempt for the extremely harmful and idiotic decision they made is supposed to be comparable to horrible prejudice like homophobia or transphobia or Islamophobia.

Oh, did I say love? I meant the exact opposite.

The author is a hack, which I suppose is par for the course for the New York Post.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#288146: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:43:50 PM

Yeah, I didn't appreciate the attempt to compare Trump's critics to bigots either. Especially considering this administration's increasingly obvious transphobia.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#288147: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:45:00 PM

It has become a personal pet peeve that people assume Trump's supporters are the poor of America.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#288148: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:47:11 PM

Indeed, that's another way the article is wrong. Trump supporters are well off, not "Walmart people" (which ironically is a rather dismissive and patronizingly classist epithet).

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#288149: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:48:02 PM

He certainly does have a stronger white upper and middle class following than people like to admit.

Though that accurately describes me, and yet somehow all of my immediate family find him repellant, so I suppose it varies somewhat.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Aug 19th 2019 at 3:48:22 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#288150: Aug 19th 2019 at 12:49:08 PM

The New York Post is a Trump shill. Move along, nothing to see here. How's the concern trolling going, Soban? Does it ever work?

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 19th 2019 at 3:49:21 PM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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