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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#287776: Aug 15th 2019 at 2:57:46 PM

Well that's worrying. And we all know that if those institutions get built, it won't be the alt right members who commit these crimes that'll be put in them. It'll be people who are deemed "crazy". People with schizophrenia or who are bipolar or autistic, even queer people in some states. This is something that we, as a nation, are still trying to move past. And Trump wants us to slide back into the days where people can be institutionalized for being "too disruptive".

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287777: Aug 15th 2019 at 2:58:16 PM

Alright, I really don't wanna start a fight over this, but seriously, this is reading like downright Afghanistan/Iraq war apologia Neocon-Style right now.

Also, its wholly dishonest to say that all the citizens want the US to stay. Especially with all the civilian deaths caused by US forces

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/30/world/asia/afghanistan-civilian-casualties.html

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TechPriest90 Servant of the Omnissiah from Collegia Titanica, Mars, Sol System Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Servant of the Omnissiah
#287778: Aug 15th 2019 at 2:58:48 PM

Anyone advocating for isolationism need only look at history to see how well that turned out.

America must - if only for our own interests - be the world's policeman. I would prefer the United States over the Russians or Chinese any damned day, and I'm pretty sure most countries on earth do so as well, barring the insane (and there's no shortage of insane people these days).

Yes, it's not a perfect solution. But that's the price of power. Like it or not, America is not an island isolated from the world. What we do affects the world. What the world does affects us. We cannot sit back and do nothing.

If some don't like it, tough shit. That's just how it is, and that's just how it should be.

RE: Afghanistan

It's another Saigon. Grim but true. Not for nothing is it called the Graveyard of Empires. They know it too, which is why they're begging the ISAF stays until the situation stabilises - whenever that might be.

Unless of course America - and most of the Western World by extension - is fine with having even more equivalents of 9/11 happening. Then by all means, pull out and bitch about the consequences.

I hold the secrets of the machine.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#287779: Aug 15th 2019 at 2:59:06 PM

[up][up]It's wholly dishonest to say everyone wants us gone, especially when security forces there say they will be defeated without American troops in the country.

That's not to downplay our fault in the situation or our crimes.

But there are people there who want to vote, who want to send their daughters to school, who want to own businesses, who want to worship Allah as they please, and who want to live safely.

And without us they can't and they're begging us to stay and for us to leave them all to twist in the wind just so we can pat ourselves on the back for not being imperialists is just disgusting.

Edited by LeGarcon on Aug 15th 2019 at 6:01:37 AM

Oh really when?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287780: Aug 15th 2019 at 2:59:42 PM

Worth reading: the APA statement on mass shootings. [1]

Research has shown that only a very small percentage of violent acts are committed by people who are diagnosed with, or in treatment for, mental illness. The rates of mental illness are roughly the same around the world, yet other countries are not experiencing these traumatic events as often as we face them.

As far as the whole argument about the US being the world police, I find the counter-argument that we should just let every country handle its own business to be absurd. We live in a globalized world, you can’t just close your doors and ignore your neighbors any more.

[up][up] It’s too bad the rest of ISAF was largely toothless. They didn’t joke that it stood for “I Saw Americans Fight” for no reason. A genuine international coalition would have done a great deal of good.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 15th 2019 at 3:01:15 AM

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287781: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:00:49 PM

America has a dubious reputation, then the right thing should be to try to improve it rather than abandoning your allies and/ or nations that explicitly asked it for help.

And if that sounds like a Neo Con, then what the heck, I am a Neo Con then

Watch me destroying my country
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287782: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:03:12 PM

Obama is the one who started making a treaty with the Taliban as a way to finally end the war and it's about the only way to make any sort of security in the region. Leaving it as a permanent never-ending warzone has not in any way shape or form done anything for Afghanistan and the fact that it can be bombed into oblivion if they secure positions means that doomsaying is silly. The Taliban can fight indefinitely but it can't hold without becoming a target.

As for US interventionalism, there's many places in the world where the US' interventionalism was desperately wanted and they were ignored. The US made many pledges to places like the Ukraine and to intervene in all places where there were genocides going on. Bill Clinton, for example, did nothing to intervene during the Rwanda genocies and even created "genocide like acts" because if he called it genocide we;d be forced to intervene.

Its the inconsistency, contravening of international law, and more that causes people to be angry.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#287783: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:06:24 PM

@Forenperser Well, I am a Neo-Con of sorts, so in my case it totally is neocon apologia.

@Charles Phipps Yeah, I think you're onto something, consistency is the issue.

Leviticus 19:34
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287784: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:08:30 PM

[up] So do you think Bush's 2 invasions were a good thing then?

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KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287785: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:10:14 PM

[up]Afghanistan definitely is a Ok, Iraq is the issue for the bad excuse (There were like, multiple more logical and legally justified reasons to invade it) but my main issue was the execution.

I'm not even American. Or a American-fanboy (thought I likely will enjoy the turism).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 15th 2019 at 5:11:40 AM

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287786: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:10:17 PM

[up][up][up][up] Taliban governance killed far more Afghans than the US ever could, so the obvious issue there is that bringing them to the table has to come with caveats.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 15th 2019 at 3:10:24 AM

They should have sent a poet.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#287787: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:12:12 PM

Leaving won't make things right in those countries regardless of how wrong the reasons for invading were.

Staying there and helping the citizens trying to build an actual democracy will.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287788: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:15:16 PM

It feels like it's been awhile since the United States has negotiated a treaty but the whole idea of them is that you impose limits on the parties involved as terms. Ones that will be abided to prevent future bloodshed.

I mean, my morale in this administration is close to 0% but it's not being negotiated by Trump. If I can be happy that Columbia negotiated a peace treaty with FARC then I can be happy about this.

Re: Iraq

I'd argue that the dissolution of the Iraq army, lack of international support, and complete lack of rebuilding due to mass embezzlement was a major part of turning what was an unnecessary war into a horror show suffered by the civilians.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#287789: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:19:22 PM

I sometimes feel like the topic of isolationism is basically debating whether or not object permanence exists.

TRUE/FALSE: The bad guys will disappear as soon you close your eyes.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287790: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:21:55 PM

[up] For me its more like 'Is bringing down the bad guy really worth it, how many innocent lives will be lost.'

Also, I wouldn't call non-military interventionism 'isolationism'. Sanctions and other diplomatic solutions are still a thing.

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KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287791: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:23:58 PM

Sanctions are a meme, they never work and even then, using them makes you hated for the Pacifisttm crowd (see Venezuela or Cuba).

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 15th 2019 at 5:42:55 AM

Watch me destroying my country
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287792: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:24:46 PM

Not to mention the US has a long history of stomping in without adequate context leading to massive civilian casualties and/or propping up dictators for selfish reasons.

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287793: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:27:04 PM

[up][up] And wars always work?

Also, that's just arguing in bad faith. Yes, they do work. No, they don't magically make a country instantly comply with all demands, but it's false to say that they don't accomplish anything.

[up] That too. Cold War South America, looking at you.

Edited by Forenperser on Aug 15th 2019 at 12:27:32 PM

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archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287794: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:28:47 PM

[up] Neither war nor diplomacy are a silver bullet, so it’s silly to leave either of them off the table. Sanctions work great for some situations, and for others you need a more kinetic option.

As was mentioned above, though, at this point we’re stuck in the Middle East. Leaving would be worse than staying, whether we should have gone in to begin with is a purely academic matter now.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 15th 2019 at 3:31:54 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#287795: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:29:34 PM

If sanctions didn't work, then Russia wouldn't have gone to all the trouble of meddling in an American election with the hope of getting their sanctions lifted.

Let's not forget that the Magnitsky Act was what motivated Russia to do all this in the first place. They're desperate to get out from under it, and that means it is hurting them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 15th 2019 at 4:31:17 AM

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#287796: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:31:28 PM

For me its more like 'Is bringing down the bad guy really worth it, how many innocent lives will be lost.'

Uh, not bringing down the bad guy will lead to innocent lives being lost anyway.

i'm tired, my friend
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287797: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:36:46 PM

[up] Point is, if the solution brings more destruction than the problem, it isn't really a solution.

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287798: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:36:59 PM

Man it’s interesting to see how this thread has changed over the years, I remember when I was the only one arguing for interventionism, looks like I wore some people down. tongue

Nobody is arguing for bad interventions or for blanket interventions everywhere, but it’s disingenuous to pretend that the US is never wanted (it often is and remains very popular in a lot of countries because of interventions), that geopolitical fires will put themselves out (look how that worked out in Syria and Rwanda), that it’s somehow okay for third party nations to suffer as proxy revenge against the US for past moral failings, or that the US isn’t already under direct active attack by Russia in the form of election interference.

I’ll try and keep my isolationism rant short for once, in brief a lot of isolationism isn’t about minimising death, it’s about minimising deaths they feel responsible for, a lot of isolationists prefer tens of thousands of innocents dying to something preventable over hundreds dying at their hands in an attempt to fix things. They make the choice to intervene not about protecting innocent lives but about minimising their own feelings of guilt, when it shouldn’t be about them.

As for the past discussion about the unicorn brigade, I’d note that I’ve long been long if the people in this thread using that term and I’m a card-carrying socialist, it’s not about putting down progressives, it’s about putting down people who refuse to fall in time when it’s time to vote because they didn’t get a perfect and non-existent candidate (we’ve also now started to see the rise of the electability unicorn from the center).

On Bernie, I do think this thread has a particularly strong dislike of Bernie, but I can’t get to-upset about it, because dam does he deserve it some times, also it’s about him not progressive policy, this thread loves Warren (well apart from like two people who I think hate everyone and hate Warren the least).

Bernie needs to cut the crap, unless papers are actually seeing serious interference from the top to direct a political agenda (which does happen) he shouldn’t be going after them.

[up] Sometimes you can’t prevent the situation getting worse, sometimes the best you can do is make it less worse, sometimes you can’t prevent the fire and just have to save as many as you can.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 15th 2019 at 10:42:23 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#287799: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:40:25 PM

[up][up]Neither is letting the people doing "less" destruction roam free.

Honestly, this argument in particular reeks of Perfect Solution Fallacy.

i'm tired, my friend
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#287800: Aug 15th 2019 at 3:45:34 PM

No, its taking the least destructive route, because, as that trope so accurately says, no way is perfect.

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