TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287576: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:48:55 PM

[up][up] Also if one defines life as beginning at conception there is also the ‘logic’ that it’s okay to force an adult to undergo 9 months of forced labour so as to protect the life of a child.

Of course that ‘logic’ falls apart when you realise that the proposed forced labour is only for women, nobody is pushing for men to randomly be forced to spend 9 months caring for a random sick child or building an orphanage.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 14th 2019 at 7:49:39 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287577: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:49:02 PM

But step-by-step is the logic behind literally every single social debate ever.

[up] I would do a argument about how that's actually a very bad misinterpreation of the Pro-Life /Anti-Abortion /Anti-Choice side but this is a banned topic

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 14th 2019 at 2:51:09 PM

Watch me destroying my country
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#287578: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:52:11 PM

@Silasw: The problem is that you're committing a slippery slope fallacy. As you say, nobody's pushing for that position.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287579: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:54:08 PM

It’s banned for topic creation and long debates, I think we’re actually okay to discuss it in brief as long as everyone stays calm.

I don’t think I’m that far off, the argument of “look it sucks but the situation is such that if you aren’t forced to undergo 9 months of forced labour an innocent child will die, so we’re making you do it” seems pretty consistent with a very kind interpretation of the anti-abortion movement, but the argument totally ignores that innocent children die all the time and we don’t force unwilling people to spend 9 months trying to prevent said deaths.

[up] That’s my point, the fact that nobody is pushing for men to have to undergo 9 months of forced labour to protect the lives of children they didn’t want shows that the entire “well there’s an innocent life at risk” argument is a crock of shit and that ‘pro-life’ groups are hypocrites.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 14th 2019 at 7:56:02 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#287580: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:56:31 PM

There is a difference between someone dying and intentionally killing them.

I'll note that if a man got pregnant, I'd say the same rules applied to them.

Edited by Soban on Aug 14th 2019 at 3:58:07 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#287581: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:58:51 PM

I'd actually agree with Soban that there is a difference between the posited situations and pregnancy, even though I disagree with them on abortion being something that should be banned.

And, honestly, the whole life debate always seemed strange to me, on both ends.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#287582: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:59:10 PM

I think Soban was saying that removing the exemption could be defended, but that the statement made is not how one should try and defend removing the exemption.
Ah, misunderstood a bit, then.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287583: Aug 14th 2019 at 12:59:38 PM

I have reached the conclusion that is impossible to debate Abortion in a polite manner, mainly because both of the most common arguments are deeply tied to something that the other side will see as completely sacred and impossible to deny to compromise, mainly because eventually the overtow window will move past that.

I honestly think that the biggest change to the Abortion debate wouldn't come from social developtment in itself, but rather when technology improves enought to ensure things like Male Pregnancy, easily available frozen embryos and similars.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 14th 2019 at 3:02:29 AM

Watch me destroying my country
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287584: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:00:16 PM

Also, uh, pregnancy can be very deadly, especially for poor women, disabled women, and women of color. I used to be very anti abortion, but we don’t force people to donate organs, and pregnancy is even *more* risky. Bodily autonomy matters.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 14th 2019 at 1:00:30 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287585: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:00:50 PM

If it’s about the sanctity of life I’m not sure why there’s a difference between a life lost to inaction and a life lost to deliberate action, either way the life is gone.

It’s interesting from outside to see how culture and the law get made to match up, in the UK (well mainland) all abortions actually need there to be a risk to the health of the women carrying as a justification. Thing is, over here simply carrying an unwanted pregnancy is considered a risk to the health of the women carrying.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 14th 2019 at 8:06:53 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#287586: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:00:59 PM

Sidestepping the abortion debate...

I have such complicated feelings on what King said. Rape is never okay. It is monstrous and evil. There are good and kind and wonderful people who are a product of that awful, evil thing. But he’s using their existence as a shield to defend rape. And that’s horrible.

I just hope people don’t start saying awful things about people who are the product of rape in response to this.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#287587: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:06:32 PM

I think that same "logic" could be applied to any number of tragic situations or puts people at a disadvantage. The thing is trying to prevent something horrible from happening in the first place, and dealing with the aftermath of something horrible are very different.

So, say, it's perfectly understandable if a woman wants to abort a pregnancy because the infant would have Downs Syndrome (as many people do) out of genuine worry for their quality of life, but it's not the same thing to go "oh, this born infant/child has Downs Syndrome so it's okay to kill them."

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287588: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:06:50 PM

[up][up]It's even more nonsensical than that tho. Because is not like people descended from rape will bet retconned out of existence.

I get what he means, that most—if not all—of humanity is descended from at least one rapist, but that really don't affect any present law.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 14th 2019 at 3:09:08 AM

Watch me destroying my country
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287589: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:11:31 PM

I have such complicated feelings on what King said. Rape is never okay. It is monstrous and evil. There are good and kind and wonderful people who are a product of that awful, evil thing. But he’s using their existence as a shield to defend rape. And that’s horrible.

I just hope people don’t start saying awful things about people who are the product of rape in response to this.

Your worry is understandable, but I don't think this will come to pass. The pro-choice side is motivated out of concern for the mother instead of some aversion to the fetus, so there isn't really any reason for us to make this kind of (horrible) argument.

But yes, I absolutely agree that no one should do this.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287590: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:15:08 PM

Yeah, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone do this? It’s an entirely hypothetical problem. I have seen some people use their own experience to argue for/against abortion, such as “my mom was raped and she’s glad she kept me!” versus “my mom was raped and I wish she’d had a choice, she was forced to keep me and it was awful for her.”

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287591: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:15:54 PM

[up]X4 Sure, which is why I’m not a fan of the idea that people should be forced to surrender part of their life for the well being of others that they didn’t sign up to be responsible for, but if we’re going with that logic I think we should be consistent about it.

Also I’ll note that I actually don’t think a potential child’s potential quality of life from having a mental disability should be a legitimate reason to abort, not being able to share for a child with said disability sure, but the choice should be able the self-interest of the potential parent, not the self-interest of the potential child.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 14th 2019 at 8:16:21 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#287592: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:16:55 PM

@Silasw Pregnancy is not precisely labor, though. It's a medical condition, not "work" in the economic sense of the word. And also one should keep in mind hypocrisy does not necessarily disprove a person's point. Just because your dentist doesn't floss, doesn't mean you shouldn't.

@Wisewillow That's actually a much better line of reasoning.

For the record, I don't think King's specific line of reasoning works per se, though I technically agree with his position. Though bans on abortion in the case of incest, rape, etc. are not hills I think the anti-abortion movement should die on at this point.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Aug 14th 2019 at 1:17:43 AM

Leviticus 19:34
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#287593: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:18:25 PM

[up][up]My response to that would be that a "legitimate" reason is any the person in question actually has. Which isn't to say I'd agree with all of them, but, like, their situation and all. Isn't tha the entire point of pro-choice?

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#287594: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:20:26 PM

>I have reached the conclusion that is impossible to debate Abortion in a polite manner, mainly because both of the most common arguments are deeply tied to something that the other side will see as completely sacred and impossible to deny to compromise

This is very true, it's a discussion where you have to weigh rights and such in a very deliberate manner. While I might think those who weigh things differently from me are incorrect, and their incorrect conclusions do a great deal of harm, I don't think they are completely unjustified. And I would hope that they would feel the same about how I weigh things.

>Also, uh, pregnancy can be very deadly, especially for poor women, disabled women, and women of color.

This is something I agree with, which is why for me, life of the mother is an acceptable reason for an abortion. It's a triage situation.

>If it’s about the sanctity of life I’m not sure why there’s a difference between a life lost to inaction and a life lost to deliberate action, either way the life is gone.

In essence, because that's not the options. In an abortion, you are ending a life that presumably would go on.

~sgamer82

Ok, so how would I defend it? First, only in the case that we already agree that an anti-abortion bill should be passed in any form. If we can't agree on that, I don't think it matters if rape/incest is an exception or not. How King defended it was that without Rape/Incest none of us would be here. Thus also defending the horror of rape/incest. However, my point would be that it doesn't matter if the pregnancy started with rape/incest, we still have a person who should be protected. I think that's a respectable position regardless of if you agree with it or not.

Edited by Soban on Aug 14th 2019 at 4:26:38 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287595: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:26:26 PM

I think the pregnant woman with a consciousness should be protected. Not the clump of cells.

Many medieval cultures didn’t consider a pregnancy serious until the “quickening” when the fetus first moved.

And even IF you believe life begins at conception, we don’t have laws forcing people to get a kidney cut out if their kid is sick and needs a transplant. It’s a choice.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#287596: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:29:52 PM

[up]See, that last part is always so strange to me. Like, if you don't consider the clump of cells a person, I get that, I don't either. But I've never gotten this "it's not alive until it's born!" thing. Saying it's not alive just seems completely illogical.

It being alive doesn't actually change the arguments of why women should be able to choose.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287597: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:30:30 PM

Many medieval cultures didn’t consider a pregnancy serious until the “quickening” when the fetus first moved.

Saying that a moral argument is new isn't actual argument, I thought Progressives should knew this better than anyone else.

And even IF you believe life begins at conception, we don’t have laws forcing people to get a kidney cut out if their kid is sick and needs a transplant. It’s a choice.

Mainly because the expected thing is to hope for a available kidney. If we lived in a world where only the kidney of a parent can save their children, you better bet that laws obligating parents to do it would exist.

Heck, when we can move fertilizated eggs from every stage of development to the body of another willing parent...that would surely change the debate in the future.

Edited by KazuyaProta on Aug 14th 2019 at 3:33:52 AM

Watch me destroying my country
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#287598: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:33:28 PM

I was simply pointing out that opinions on pregnancy have varied over time.

[up][up] Alive and a person aren’t the same thing. There’s various opinions on when a fetus attains any form of consciousness from a scientific perspective or ensoulment from the religious end.

[up] Kidney transplants and other transplants can be very tricky to find as is. Many family members are willing and able to donate, some are unable, some are unwilling.

Forcing someone to literally be sliced open, have an organ removed to give it to someone else, then be in recovery and on medication for weeks is goddamn HORRIFYING, and should never, ever, ever EVER be legal.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 14th 2019 at 1:36:24 AM

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#287599: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:35:00 PM

[up] Don't forget the philosophical one that still see the Embryo as having worth by itself, even if inferior to a full human life.

Watch me destroying my country
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#287600: Aug 14th 2019 at 1:37:12 PM

This is something I agree with, which is why for me, life of the mother is an acceptable reason for an abortion. It's a triage situation

That's not really how maternal mortality works, though. Most deaths happen at or after birth, it's less "oh, you need an abortion to save your life" and more "you roll the dice when giving birth, especially if you have limited access to decent healthcare."

So when you say "life of the mother is an acceptable reason for an abortion," it should be considered a pro-choice argument because an "elective" abortion can still save her life.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Total posts: 417,856
Top