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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287376: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:33:23 AM

Suicide watches in prison end after just a few days. They’re for immediate risk, not general risk, as the isolation and oppressive environment tends to make patients worse, not better.

Can we at least wait until the official verdict is out to start fanning the flames of conspiracy?

[up] I mentioned it above, but I think the conspiratorial mindset is a comforting one for events that seem beyond anyone’s control.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 6:40:42 AM

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287377: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:36:34 AM

[up]Apparently not. We started fanning those flames the instant we found out he was dead.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#287378: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:40:22 AM

I'm going to say that I don't think a conspiracy is too terribly likely and if there was one I doubt the actions taken were much more complex than bribing a guard. But I also wouldn't be surprised if the people that were supposed to be keeping an eye on Epstein decided to let him kill himself just because they'd prefer him dead over having a chance at getting away with his crimes

I've found that some people that argue against conspiracies can end up being kind of a mirror image of what they're arguing against. "The New World Order is laughably implausible therefore nothing shady happened whatsoever"

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287379: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:42:06 AM

[up] Now that’s just a strawman, come on.

They should have sent a poet.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#287380: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:45:33 AM

My take on the whole thing: The possibility that somebody just enabled him to commit suicide isn't that far-fetched.

Conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones make a lot of people reject the idea that there's something fishy going on by instinct - because the word "conspiracy" is associated with "the people are behind everything" crazy-pants nonsense in a lot of people's minds these days.

Heck, when the topic came up in some of the online circles I frequent, a lot of people were insisting that he was murdered (because apparently it's only foul play if Trump/Clinton/whomever else they want to blame went in personally to kill Eppstein with their bare hands).

Even if there's a conspiracy going on, some people have this incessant need to attach extra shit to it, making it actually sound less plausible.

Long story short: Eppstein's death might be due to conspiracy, but if it is, it probably wasn't the moon people sneaking in and stringing him up on orders of who-knows.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 11th 2019 at 3:48:23 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287381: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:55:08 AM

[up][up][up]Oh come on. I never once suggested a murder was impossible.

Just that we have had zero actual evidence so far that this was anything but a suicide. And that it's ludicrous that people started spewing conspiracy theories here the second we found out he was dead.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 9:55:43 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#287382: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:15:48 AM

Of course I'll admit that my mind did jump to foul play, but now I'm of the opinion that even if there was foul play, it isn't to the conspiratorial extent that some think it is.

Shady business doesn't have to always come from the powerful.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287383: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:24:22 AM

Epstein was held in '9 South', a 'special housing unit' (in US Federal Prison jargon, that means a solitary confinement block) used for unusually challenging prisoners, including rule violators and people who are under protective custody due to threat of assassination (and remember that the MCC was designed to deal with the New York mafia). So, a difficult place to die in, especially by hanging - SH Us aren't supposed to have anything you can hang yourself from.

Edited by Iaculus on Aug 11th 2019 at 2:25:35 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287384: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:24:52 AM

I’m just going to point out that if the death was because of negligence or malice on the part of an individual, like a guard, it would not be a conspiracy by definition.

What the conspiratorial angle strikes me as here is people wishing and hoping someone can be made to pay after Epstein “escaping” justice.

[up] Cells on 9-South are for rule breakers and new arrivals. “Specialized Housing Unit” just means the cells are single-man, it doesn’t mean any special precautions are taken in the cell design.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 7:39:59 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287385: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:24:56 AM

Still think it was foul play but not a criminal conspiracy,more like criminal incompetency that has robbed people of justice

Hopefully in the wake of his death they carry out some much needed reforms

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287386: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:27:58 AM

Hanlon's Razor and all that.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287387: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:36:49 AM

I'm not sure this is adequately explained by stupidity, though. Again, solitary confinement cells in 9 South aren't supposed to have anything you can hang yourself from, even if the guards are asleep.

What's precedent ever done for us?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287388: Aug 11th 2019 at 7:50:58 AM

[up] SHUs are just regular solitary confinement, not specialized medical units. You can see a video of one here. [1]

As much as it would be comforting for this to be conspiracy, it’s probably just negligence. MCC New York has a terrible record as far as the way prisoners are treated and has had issues exactly like this in the past. [2]

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 7:51:56 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287389: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:21:55 AM

Sure but then one has to consider if MCC’s incompetence it itself a deliberate product of decisions made by people in positions of power.

A plausible conspiracy to get Epstein dead doesn’t involve a secret assassin sneaking into the prison, or even bribing a guard to look the other way, it involves the creation of a culture where people like Epstein end up dead because the people who should prevent such a death don’t.

It’s not a “bribe the warden to let me ninja assassin in” situation, it’s “elect a politician who will appoint a cruel governor who will hire negligent guards who won’t work properly to prevent Epstein being able to kill himself” situation.

Someone wanting Epstein dead didn’t have to hire a person to kill him, they just had to bring about a situation where Epstein was in a room with someone with both the means and motive to kill him, which amounts to being in a room by himself with a bedsheet.

As much as I do agree with the “we mustn’t rush to judgment until the evidence is determined” I find it a tad hypocritical that they seem to come with a statement of “and thus there was no conspiracy and everyone should shut up”. If we’re waiting for evidence than we shouldn’t be ruling out either a conspiracy or negligence.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 11th 2019 at 3:25:00 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287390: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:24:28 AM

Except said facility was awful long before anyone thought Epstein would end up there.

So still not a conspiracy.

As much as I do agree with the “we mustn’t rush to judgment until the evidence is determined” I find it a tad hypocritical that they seem to come with a statement of “and thus there was no conspiracy and everyone should shut up”. If we’re waiting for evidence than we shouldn’t be ruling out either a conspiracy or negligence.

The difference is that a conspiracy requires a lot more evidence than simple negligence. So in absence of further evidence suggesting otherwise, it's probably more reasonable to go along with the explanation that does not require making up a conspiracy.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 11:26:59 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287391: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:27:15 AM

[up][up] Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you actually suggesting that Epstein was murdered via a decades-long plan involving both state and federal governments to foster incompetence in prisons, creating a dangerous environment?

Because if so, that’s the most insanely convoluted murder plot I’ve ever heard. What’s far more likely is that the culture of incompetence and malice in prisons had nothing to do with Epstein at all.

As noted in that Slate article I linked, MCC New York has been a hellhole for ages. This isn’t even the first high-profile prisoner they’ve lost to suicide.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 8:28:56 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287392: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:29:40 AM

Epstein is far from the first awful person whose death is conventions for powerful people. A lot depends on how you define a conspiracy, because a casual line can probably be drawn from a great number of people to Epstein’s death, they probably didn’t consciously cause the dominoes to fall, but they still pushed the next one over.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but are you actually suggesting that Epstein was murdered via a decades-long plan involving both state and federal governments to foster incompetence in prisons, creating a dangerous environment?

Epstein specifically? God no, that’d be insane and would require people to have the ability to see the future.

But I am saying that the state of the prison system as an incompetently run shit-hole where bad people regularly die before they can face justice (and rat out other bad people) isn’t a natural creation.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 11th 2019 at 3:34:02 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287393: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:33:03 AM

Conscious involvement is kind of critical for a conspiracy to function, yes you have patsies and pawns who don't need to know but someone needs to know. And when you're talking about decades if not centuries-long conspiracies that involve the intentional organization of our justice system then you've left the realm of plausible conspiracies and entered the one for fantasy conspiracies.

When we're talking about the justice system it stops being a conspiracy and becomes a systematic problem that just so happened to have a more high profile victim (for a certain definition of "victim").

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287394: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:37:01 AM

Conscious involvement at what level? At the level of Epstein dying I agree it’s highly unlikely, but at the level of creating a justice system where people like Epstein die and thus people like his co-conspirators are protected, yeah I suspect that such a system has been consciously built.

Systemic problem can very much be consciously created and preserved so that they allow the preservation of power in the hands of the powerful.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287395: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:38:53 AM

Yes, but that doesn't need to involve a conspiracy.

A group of people designing something isn't a conspiracy, it requires secrecy to be properly conspiratorial. The flaws of the justice system are very much the product of public efforts, such as the Tough on Crime fad which has had bipartisan support.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287396: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:44:05 AM

Even if the horrible state of MCC New York was deliberately created, that isn’t an indicator of a conspiracy to kill Epstein.

I think you’re ascribing too much individual motive to a massive and complex bureaucracy. It’s less motivation and more inertia with things like this.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 8:45:46 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287397: Aug 11th 2019 at 8:45:11 AM

I’m not wedded to the word conspiracy, if you want to call what I’m suggesting “a deliberately caused systemic issue of the justice system than has output an event favourable to powerful people” I’m okay with that.

[up] People make conscious choices to either set a ball or rolling or to not fight the existing negative culture that they encounter, they should be held accountable for their choices.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 11th 2019 at 3:48:17 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287398: Aug 11th 2019 at 9:07:47 AM

[up] Sure, but that’s a long way from the deliberate decades-long plan you’re describing.

I mean, you’re suggesting the rich and powerful have been guiding the prison system over the years for the sole purpose of eliminating their enemies via random violence brought about by the incompetence they’ve deliberately induced? If they’re willing to expend that much effort over that long a time frame, why not just eliminate their enemies straight up? That requires a massive suspension of disbelief.

What seems more accurate is that individual malice and incompetence shaped by a justice system designed to punish minorities has continuously exacerbated issues across the prison system.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 9:10:47 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287399: Aug 11th 2019 at 10:11:55 AM

I see it like this,if he was murdered they'll find the culprit sooner then you think,especially if they thought turning off security cameras and waiting till he he was off suicide watch meant they could work unseen

Especially if it was an inmate or prison staff,

Though I suppose if it was outsider they'd have a very short timeframe in which to work,get in,wait,strike,then get out all while being undetected

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#287400: Aug 11th 2019 at 10:29:45 AM

It's incredibly unlikely that Epstein was murdered. What is within the realm of possibility is that the people responsible for watching him consciously looked the other way while he killed himself. We're basically looking at three options here:

  • Epstein was allowed to kill himself due to gross incompetence.
  • Epstein was allowed to kill himself due to criminal negligence.
  • Epstein was allowed to kill himself because someone was paid off.

There's no hard evidence to support the third possibility at present, and unlikely there ever would be even if it were true, but it's still a suspicious degree of simple things going wrong to allow his suicide to happen.


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