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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#287351: Aug 10th 2019 at 5:07:29 PM

Besides, your personal politics in no way determines whether you're a sexual predator or not.

Which is in no way what I just said and I'm actually wondering how that's what you took away from my post.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
jjjj2 from Arrakis Since: Jul, 2015
#287352: Aug 10th 2019 at 5:15:14 PM

[up][up]Not neccessarily no. Some of them are just recorded as knowing him or spending time with him.

You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287353: Aug 10th 2019 at 5:29:19 PM

I didn't actually disagree with you.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#287355: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:07:07 PM

That, and he realized that he was never getting out of prison.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#287356: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:59:09 PM

No one's really been disputing that Epstein would have motive to kill himself. What's being called into question is why he had the opportunity. At best, Epstein's death constitutes gross incompetence/negligence from the authorities responsible for him.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#287357: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:15:21 AM

Apparently, people close to him described him as being in good spirits recently.

Do not obey in advance.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#287358: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:16:35 AM

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t in at least somewhat common for someone planning suicide to be in good spirits?

Oh God! Natural light!
Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#287359: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:17:56 AM

[up][up]Which is supposedly actually pretty common for people that are about to commit suicide. 'cause, you know, they just decided on a course of action that will solve all their problems forever.

[nja]

Edited by Kayeka on Aug 11th 2019 at 10:18:55 AM

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#287360: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:28:11 AM

The far left thinks Trump silenced him to avoid Epstein revealing some sordid Ivanka Sex Tape, the far right of course trot out their same tired "CLINTON KILL COUNT" nonsense.

Morons have to attribute a massive conspiracy to the fact a guy killed himself because that they see this makes them feel important.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#287361: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:32:32 AM

I dunno - the far left don’t really seem like the types to pin their hopes on a scandal like this bringing Trump down? At least in my experience.

Oh God! Natural light!
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#287362: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:47:21 AM

I'm not sure the conspiracy theorizing is all that politically motivated. What happened was incredibly suspicious, and there's plenty of people with reason to want Epstein dead. Murder is just a reasonable theory to consider

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#287363: Aug 11th 2019 at 1:58:33 AM

Not even directly murder in this case; more like persuading someone somewhere in the chain of people responsible for watching him to look the other way if he made another suicide attempt.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#287364: Aug 11th 2019 at 2:18:43 AM

If you want to fling names into the hat, don't forget the House of Saud has a few members implicated. And, they're not alone.

Epstein had a lot of names from a lot of high places. Heck, it would surprise me if there wasn't an uncoordinated, free-for-all, "Fawlty Towers" Plot of a bribery bonanza involving several outside interests going on up and down the chain on the off-chance they'd get him to shut up. One he likely decided to rely on once it dawned on him he was actually screwed.

Having Epstein be a successful suicide is unlikely just to be about American politics.

But, it could help clean your governmental pipes out. Because, really, now... Actually letting it happen?

Edited by Euodiachloris on Aug 11th 2019 at 10:28:18 AM

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287365: Aug 11th 2019 at 2:30:56 AM

As a Wa Po reporter pointed out, Epstein also said his last suicide attempt was someone else trying to kill him. I mean, yeah, he might have been lying, but it's something else to take into account - particularly at the MCC, which routinely houses extremely murderable prisoners.

What's precedent ever done for us?
ACW from Arlington, VA (near Washington, D.C.) Since: Jul, 2009
#287366: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:13:07 AM

Trump retweeted a conspiracy theory blaming the Clintons. For fuck's sake.

Also, relevant Twitter thread.

Codafett Knows-Many-Things Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Waiting for you *wink*
Knows-Many-Things
#287367: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:22:55 AM

https://www.pressherald.com/2019/08/09/biden-tells-minority-voters-in-iowa-that-poor-kids-are-just-as-bright-as-white-kids/

Obviously Biden misspoke and continues to misspeak, but I think the coverage by conservatives that go and inflate all his blunders is an active attempt to take the heat off of POTUS. Hell, I'm sure we've been desensitized to Trump saying racist shit regularly, but let's not try and equate him and Biden.

Just Having Fun
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287368: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:29:10 AM

[up][up] There’s a really interesting point brought up in there.

Narratively, the story that fits in John Le Carré is more emotionally satisfying. A conspiracy means there’s someone in charge, someone to blame. An Intelligent Designer. Who might take a fall someday.

In a broader sense, I think the conspiratorial mindset ultimately points to the feeling of a lack of control. Conspiracy theories impose order and assign guilt, which is comforting for a lot of people who feel powerless.

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287369: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:36:48 AM

That thread also pointed out that Epstein committing suicide may have also been an act of taking control away from other people.

One of the better documented suicides in legal captivity was Göring, during the Nuremberg trials. He’d been convicted & sentenced, and was scheduled to hang the next day. And yet, he used a cyanide capsule. 10/30 One aspect of Göring’s decision was likely denial of control. By being the agent of his own death, he denied his captors - whom he considered the enemy - the justice they wanted to impose on him.

Göring was not even the first of the Nuremberg suicides. 11/30 Suicide in people who have demonstrated a history of antisocial behavior is not always existential despair.

It can also be an expression of control & defiance, a refusal to submit to people they don’t consider their equals, stealing victory & creating a mess & ruin.

12/30 In fact, of the personality disorders, Narcissistic Personality Disorder correlates most strongly with suicide attempts & suicide completion. There’s an urban myth that narcissists don’t commit suicide, and that’s entirely wrong. 13/30

With narcissism, which often has solipsistic elements, the person may believe that the world ends for everyone when they die.

It can be a giant fuck off to everyone.

But also being unable to use their learned tools - manipulation, privilege - is an existential horror. 14/30

He may very well have done this to deny victims closure, ensure nobody could humble him anymore.

Is today’s suicide convenient for a lot of people? Maybe.

But I always take selfish, stupid & lazy over competent conspiracy. (Incompetent conspiracies are another matter.) But I’d call it revenge. A FU to victims, justice system, associates.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 7:40:46 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#287370: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:38:55 AM

That thread makes a good case, but I do note that it completely fails to mention CCTV monitoring, which I feel is probably relevant

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287371: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:40:49 AM

The thread also points out the conspiracy mongering already starting.

But it’s also deeply inconvenient, because as twitter today proves, there will be conspiracy thinking about this forever. Nobody will escape it. I see the theories already forming& they’re taking the form of 9/11 truthers: Let It Happen On Purpose, Made it Happen on Purpose.

It's stuff I'm seeing even here.

Let's at least try to act better than this.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 7:41:27 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287372: Aug 11th 2019 at 4:44:18 AM

[up][up] We still don’t know what cell he was being held in at the time of his death. Only the very highest-security ones have CCTV. I’ll also point out that between things like guards simply not noticing one screen in a bank of a hundred screens and lights out time at night it’s fairly easy to imagine a suicide could have happened anyways.

And, as that thread pointed out, simple incompetence is much more likely than a massive super-conspiracy that’s capable enough to sneak past NYPD, BOP and FPS, but stupid enough to kill Epstein in a place guaranteed to attract attention from numerous state and federal agencies.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 11th 2019 at 4:47:22 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#287373: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:08:08 AM

Even if he was under constant CCTV surveillance, that still doesn't imply a conspiracy.

Prisoners themselves aren't the only ones with a certain attitude towards known paedophiles.

All it takes is for one guard to interpret the cheerfulness Epstein displayed after deciding he was going to commit suicide as him acting like he was going to get away with it and, boom, suddenly that monitor's not getting watched so good.

Angry gets shit done.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#287374: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:22:41 AM

Many professionals have already come out and called Epstein's removal from suicide watch dumbfounding and unacceptable, which I agree with. I'm not usually one for conspiracies, but sometimes it's easier to let one do the deed themselves and just wait.

Life is unfair...
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287375: Aug 11th 2019 at 6:25:43 AM

Epstein likely conned people into thinking he could be taken off of it, the same way he managed to con and manipulate other people throughout his life.

I get the feeling people are latching on to conspiracies and such because they don't want to admit that Epstein found a way to escape justice one last time.

Edited by M84 on Aug 11th 2019 at 9:27:38 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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