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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287301: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:40:05 AM

Could we at least give it a day or so for investigators to do their thing before we engage in conspiracy mongering?

Disgusted, but not surprised
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#287302: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:42:22 AM

The problem with the narrative of "Epstein was murdered to protect others" is that only he died; none of the witnesses, none of the victims, only him. Him being killed in his jail cell might slow down finding out who's in his pedophile ring, but it won't stop the truth from being revealed. Only if victims and witnesses start dying and disappearing (which none have so far) would I think something's afoot.

At worst, the Cops simply looked away as they realized Epstein was about to kill himself, not to protect anyone, but because they wanted him dead.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#287303: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:52:13 AM

It looks like Epstein was not on Suicide Watch, if he were he would have been removed from the Special Housing Unit, were he was located, as per protocol.

Also, from what I'm hearing, other inmates are trained as suicide watchers and the place has been understaffed for a while.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287304: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:56:00 AM

See, this is one of the reasons I think we should wait a bit on this before making any judgement calls.

It's so easy to be misinformed this early.

Disgusted, but not surprised
indigoJay from The Astral Plane Since: Dec, 2018 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
#287305: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:58:20 AM

[up][up][up][up] I think we definitely need to give this time before passing judgements. This entire situation is insane, though. I dismissed this as a conspiracy theory at first.

Edited by indigoJay on Aug 10th 2019 at 11:58:34 AM

There is no war in Ba Sing Se.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287307: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:00:24 AM

The chain of events is clear, some incompetent ended his suicide watch and then he killed himself.

No conspiracy needed.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 10th 2019 at 11:00:49 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#287308: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:02:03 AM

Either that or Epstein intentionally tricked people into ending his suicide watch early so he could commit it.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287309: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:02:33 AM

I would qualify anyone who is tricked in such a manner to be incompetent, or malicious.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#287310: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:10:14 AM

I don't think Epstein is that cunning anyway.

i'm tired, my friend
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287311: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:16:43 AM

Yes, if there was any influence that caused them to end his suicide watch then it would almost certainly be external rather then from Epstein.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287312: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:31:36 AM

I suspect the suicide watch simply ended. If the patient doesn’t continue to try and harm themselves they’re placed back into regular holding after a while.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287313: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:34:28 AM

While I am not saying, "It must have been murder!" I should point out that murder becomes a lot more likely in circumstances where, you know, people who can and do commit murder are involved.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287314: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:36:09 AM

Having him taken off suicide watch could be either a deliberate move to ensure his death or an act of gross negligence, it’s far to early to call it either way.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287315: Aug 10th 2019 at 11:42:59 AM

His cell still had 24-hour monitoring (because he was kept in 10-South, the supermax wing where they keep mob bosses), and the pics of his body (which I won't share, because they're kind of gross) show him to be the shade of blue you only see when someone's been hanging for a while. Either the cameras malfunctioned, or someone wasn't watching them.

What's precedent ever done for us?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287316: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:01:47 PM

Or we could wait for actual forensic experts to do their jobs rather than getting into conspiracy theorizing.

They should have sent a poet.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#287318: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:05:22 PM

Its not conspiracy theorizing yet, its speculation.

Mostly because suspicious deaths in high profile cases are one of the few areas where speculating on murders is not bizarre.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:06:16 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#287319: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:09:25 PM

Even when one is suspicious of the circumstances surrounding a situation such as this, it is still not a stellar idea to engage in rampant theorizing since that is how misinformation starts to form.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#287320: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:11:02 PM

Two weeks on suicide watch... is inadequate, by any measure. And, that is if it's done properly in the first place: isolation never helps.

If they started pumping antidepressants into him after his previous attempt (which is standard), they would only barely be beginning to work — ideally, you wait three to four weeks before reassessing. The third week is the most risky period of any prescription — be it new or a change.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Aug 10th 2019 at 8:12:25 PM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287321: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:12:16 PM

[up][up] Exactly this.

[up] That’s a problem with US prisons as a whole. In most prisons suicide watch is basically “isolation but a guard looks in your cell every hour”.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 10th 2019 at 12:17:48 PM

They should have sent a poet.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287322: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:44:01 PM

I think that the normal, sane aversion to conspiracy theories takes a bit of a bettering when we're talking about they death of a guy heading a documented sex-trafficking conspiracy which Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Ehud Barak, Prince Andrew, and Matt fuckin' Groening were all reportedly up to their eyeballs in. Like, we're already firmly in crazytown here. What's an arranged suicide against all that?

What's precedent ever done for us?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287323: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:47:58 PM

wait how is Mat groening is involved in this?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#287324: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:55:17 PM

Pretty much my only thoughts on this is it's a failure of US mental health structure (see what happened to Etika who was let out too soon) or Epstein got some sort of help from within (including deliberate negligence) to make it easier.

Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287325: Aug 10th 2019 at 12:55:47 PM

[up][up]Behold... and bring mindbleach.

Edited by Iaculus on Aug 10th 2019 at 7:56:51 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?

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