TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287276: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:06:38 AM

A high profile prisoner who had been previously injured committing suicide is possible yes, but it requires gross (and possibly deliberate) negligence by the people responsible for him.

If he wasn’t on suicide watch then someone chose to not put him on suicide watch and such a desicion is incredibly suspect, if he was on suicide watch then the fact that he managed to commit suicide anyway is incredibly suspect.

I can’t see a reason for Epstein to be allowed access to suicide tools other than because his captors wanted him to commit suicide.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287277: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:08:33 AM

> Life isn't a work of fiction and our narratives are not reliable.

No one is disputing this,its just justice has been denied,stolen like a bone from a hungry dog

and I want to know who took the bone and why dammit

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287278: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:09:04 AM

I tend to go with incompetence over malice. Plus we have yet to see any evidence suggesting foul play.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#287279: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:10:28 AM

He was supposed to be on watch.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287280: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:10:59 AM

The evidence is the dead body,they better not burn it,I want it to be thoroughly examined

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#287281: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:11:35 AM

The evidence is the dead body,they better not burn it,I want it to be thoroughly examined

That's not evidence, there would be a dead body even if it was 100% authentic suicide.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#287282: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:17:03 AM

There’s the fact that he died while in the custody of an organisation that has a duty of care both to him and of him.

Yes it is entirely possible that the prison he was in simply has a culture of allowing prisoners to kill themselves, a culture that could be due to either malice or incompetence.

I don’t particularly care which it was, in either case that facility failed and caused a huge loss of evidence to prosecutors, the staff at the facility need to be held criminally accountable for the justice they have denied the Americana public, even if they did deny America that justice ‘only’ by being grossly incompetent.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#287283: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:19:09 AM

This is a case where sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#287284: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:22:41 AM

It's definitely suspicious, and an autopsy should absolutely be performed and surveillance records reviewed. Yes, it's entirely reasonable that he committed suicide, but that he was able to commit suicide is the remarkable thing here, given the surrounding circumstances.

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 10th 2019 at 10:23:41 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287285: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:23:41 AM

[up][up][up]Never said otherwise. I just tend to default to incompetence barring evidence.

Edited by M84 on Aug 10th 2019 at 10:24:06 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287286: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:25:25 AM

Yeah, the evidence of foul play is that he was on suicide watch in a extremely secure, heavily surveilled facility. At that point, the base assumption is that you can't commit suicide, especially in the way he did, so it's reasonable to suspect something sinister went down.

Kind of like if a priceless necklace goes missing from inside a bank vault. You're not just going to assume you dropped it down the back of a sofa.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287287: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:27:24 AM

> That's not evidence, there would be a dead body even if it was 100% authentic suicide.

Your right,there would still be body if was a regular suicide,however,in this case examining the body would confirm if foul play was involved,unexplained bruises or injuries sustained would confirm he was not alone in his cell

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287288: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:27:47 AM

An autopsy isn’t going to reveal anything interesting here. Autopsies give you the cause of death, not the manner of the death.

If he was being held in a low security cell it’s entirely conceivable he could have hung himself, or found some other way to commit suicide. Low security cells don’t have CCTV coverage and prisoners are allowed access to things like blankets which could conceivably be used in a suicide attempt. A murder conspiracy would be a pretty extraordinary event, and as we all know extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

They should have sent a poet.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#287289: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:30:09 AM

Disgraced financier Jeffrey Epstein, awaiting sex trafficking charges, dead of apparent suicide

The Times, which said Epstein hanged himself, quoted officials as saying his body was found at 7:30 a.m. Saturday.

CNN and NBC News reported that Epstein was found in cardiac arrest early Saturday and taken to a hospital where he died.

Officials at the Metropolitan Correctional Center did not immediately respond to inquiries seeking comment on the reported suicide.

The New York Fire Department, without naming the individual, confirmed that it received a call at 6:39 a.m. about a person in cardiac arrest at the Metropolitan Correctional Center. The individual was transported to a New York hospital shortly.

It was not immediately clear how Epstein could have killed himself since he was under suicide watch after being found unconscious three week ago in his cell in Metropolitan Correctional Center.

Edited by Soban on Aug 10th 2019 at 10:31:41 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#287290: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:30:14 AM

From a cause we can determine the manner,one follows the other

Edited by Ultimatum on Aug 10th 2019 at 2:31:20 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287291: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:34:16 AM

[up] Sort of. Not always.

For example, if the cause is asphyxiation via constriction (what you’d expect from a hanging) there are numerous possible manners of death. The autopsy results have to be combined with evidence from the scene to determine the nature of what happened.

People have a very skewed idea of how things like autopsies work thanks to television and movies.

At this point it’s way too early to start guessing at a conspiracy. The evidence points towards suicide.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 10th 2019 at 7:38:17 AM

They should have sent a poet.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#287292: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:48:09 AM

I wouldn't necessarily assume that there is a political conspiracy here even if there was foul play. Serial child rapists are hateworthy people and get treated accordingly.

I don't know what the criteria for conducting autopsies are in the US but in Switzerland we'd certainly carry out an autopsy (and investigation of the scene), there are enough reasons to:

  • Person is a celebrity/wealthy person.
  • Death was evidently violent.
  • Death happened during police custody.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#287293: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:50:38 AM

At this point it’s way too early to start guessing at a conspiracy. The evidence points towards suicide.

These are not mutually exclusive, as multiple people - icluding me - pointed out before.

The question is not if Eppstein committed suicide - but if somebody deliberately let him.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 10th 2019 at 4:52:07 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#287294: Aug 10th 2019 at 7:56:13 AM

It's entirely possible someone (literally) gave him the rope he needed to hang himself. But until we get more evidence, I'm just going to go with "shitty suicide watch".

Disgusted, but not surprised
Arctimon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#287295: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:07:15 AM

And the White House has a lid on for the rest of the day.

Because that's totally not suspicious or anything.

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#287296: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:10:45 AM

There's about equal amounts of Clinton and Trump photos floating around (and some of Prince Andrew) as possible suspects.

Honestly, all three were implicated.

You could even blame Kevin Spacey but I think that ship sailed.

Or Katie Couric!

(yes, she was a friend of Epstein's)

Just to clarify, is this post discussing customers of Epstein's? Also, do you mean Bill Clinton or Hillary? I don't want to assume.

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287297: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:13:09 AM

Remember that the MCC is not just your average shitty local prison. It's a literal high-tech fortress where they regularly house terrorists and mob bosses. Hell, they held Bernie Madoff, Frank Gotti, and El Chapo there. Some dumbass security guard forgetting Epstein's belt seems extremely unlikely.

Edited by Iaculus on Aug 10th 2019 at 3:13:58 PM

What's precedent ever done for us?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#287298: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:22:45 AM

[up]x5 At this point I’d assume negligence rather than malice. This isn’t the first time MCC New York has had issues with prisoners killing themselves.

They should have sent a poet.
Iaculus Pronounced YAK-you-luss from England Since: May, 2010
Pronounced YAK-you-luss
#287299: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:36:04 AM

lol, the camera failed in Epstein's cell. Presumably just before he managed to magic up a noose.

What's precedent ever done for us?
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#287300: Aug 10th 2019 at 8:38:37 AM

That sort of information is dubious coming from someone who still believes Seth Rich was targeted by the Clintons.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

Total posts: 417,856
Top