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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
As trite as it sounds I think both sides have a point.
Yes, we should give those people a path for redemption and an opportunity to be useful.
But it's worth remembering who they are and what they currently stand for, Republicans are not economically a monolith but they do have common views on race. So it's more than possible for them to think, "wow this makes a lot of sense" while simultaneously thinking that the trans and the brown people should stay quiet and submissive.
It would be great if they choose to not vote Republican or even go as far as to support Democrats, but we shouldn't forget that racists can support social programs for the in-group and the cost of courting them is far too high.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThat should be obvious.
Talking to these people, trying to convince them is one thing, but giving them what they (now) want is a no-no.
So far, Bernie has done this quite well imO.
And spartan, I get what you're saying too. Maybe I am a little too idealistic x) I just refuse to accept that most people are inherently crappy. A lot of them are, sure. But it IS a fight worth fighting, damn it. By writing off all these people, we are giving the other side exactly what it wants.
Whenever I'm feeling down by all the shitty stuff happening, I look up positive stuff. Recently for example, I read a story (already a few years old) about a former Neo-Nazi who became best friends with an indian man who lost his father in a racist mass shooting at a Sikh temple. Today, they run a project together that helps victims of trauma and preaches tolerance and forgiveness.
Edited by Forenperser on Aug 9th 2019 at 10:22:39 AM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% ScandinavianHopefully going to prison for the many, many crimes he committed both to get into office and while holding it. Mueller straight up said Trump can be prosecuted the moment he leaves office.
Realistically? Since no incoming President wants to deal with the optics of jailing their predecessor, he'll probably leverage his popularity to maintain the culture. Keep doing rallies to push Trump-style Republicans, throw some support behind white supremacists, and bounce around the media circuit to talk about the state of the country. While inventing a million conspiracy theories along the way.
He's not the kind of guy to quietly fade into the background like many former Presidents do. Trump's going to do everything in his power to keep the Republican party revolving around him.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 9th 2019 at 2:29:27 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Oh, if Trump loses 2020, I totally expect to see him in the 2024 primary. Assuming age doesn't catch up to him before then.
How effective he is will depend on how whether the Republicans spend those four years doubling down on Trumpism to appeal to his base or rejecting Trumpism to reclaim their lost voters. Without a second term for Trump, I imagine quite a few Republicans in the 2022 midterm and 2024 general will run on the "Bringing dignity back to the Republican party!" platform.
"Unlike Trump, I'm NOT openly racist. But I sure do hate Mexicans! VOTE FOR ME, a true Republican candidate!"
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 9th 2019 at 2:49:48 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
X4 Thing is it’s not just up to the new president, states can also prosecute, that’s before one considers the horrific optics of a victorious 2020 democrat either explicitly pardoning Trump or de-facto pardoning Trump, they could easily loose the 2024 primary on the back of such an act.
Also the entire thing assumes that Trump hands power over peacefully, which is far from a given.
There are probably democrats in Congress who would hit pretty hard against a democrat president who ordered that Trump be granted immunity for all his crimes. If the Democrats win in 2020 I suspect that the pick fro AG will get grilled during conformation on if they plan to grant Trump immunity.
Edited by Silasw on Aug 9th 2019 at 8:54:22 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThe Evil Turtle is back on Twitter. Twitter reverses course, unlocks McConnell campaign account
.
Trump doesn't have a choice in the matter. The Presidency passes to the winner of the 2020 election no matter what he says or thinks.
Trump may well declare him the "true President" and issue declarations and shit from "the Southern White House", Mar-a-Lago. Frankly, I half-expect him to do exactly that. And he can demand recounts and he file various lawsuits claiming he was cheated out of the Presidency. But if he didn't win the election, then he won't have any legal power to back those suits up.
The best case scenario (for Trump, not the U.S.) is becoming unofficial President of the myriad white supremacist militias like the Oath Keepers or such. But with a Democrat in the White House who has no vested interest in entertaining the Nazi demographic, there's only so far they'd be able to push.
You're talking about a formal declaration of legal immunity.
I'm talking about no declaration of any kind. The Democratic President enters office, Trump leaves office, and then. Like. That's it. It's done. No one prosecutes, no one talks about prosecuting, it's just over.
"Are you going to arrest Trump?" "Ain't nobody got time to talk about that 'cause WE DOIN' HEALTHCARE."
The ability to prosecute Trump enters the picture in 2020 if he fails to win re-election, but the political ramifications of arresting a former President enter with them. It's not a good look, and it keeps Trump in the public's awareness after he's ceased to be politically relevant. It's far easier for an incoming President to just move on to whatever they want to make their Presidency about and let Trump go.
Now, if we impeached him successfully, that would be a different story. Then he could be prosecuted for the crimes he was impeached for. But that option isn't on the table, and any move made against him after we stand by, do nothing, and allow him to leave office by normal means as a normal President would just look like an authoritarian political attack.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 9th 2019 at 3:05:30 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Sure, but someone still has to physically remove him from the White House, the Secret Service will have to remove him by force, and possibly content with any armed groups he can gather.
Remember in 2016 Trump suggested that if Hillary won armed groups should kill her so as to prevent her taking office, he might do that again, if he loses he might become even more explicit.
There are a handful of nightmare scenarios for the transition period if Trump loses in 2020.
- Trump tries to start a war, he’d get nowhere with military commanders but could try and bait another nation into firing first via twitter, other nations probably won’t fall for it.
- Trump orders ICE agents to kill migrant detainees before they can be released by the incoming democrat, he may either offer or grant pardons for ICE agents doing this.
- Trump calls for armed groups to surround the White House and prevent the Secret Service from removing him.
- Trump denies that he lost the election and again calls for “2nd amendment people” to do something, possibly more explicitly and with the offer of pardons.
All of that is stuff he has the ability to do as long as he has access to his twitter, narcissists aren’t know for going down quietly.
Fingers crossed he does go quietly, he just yells at the world and doesn’t explicitly call for armed groups to back him up, or maybe said groups don’t turn up or manage to get headed off by D.C. police.
You think a prospective AG isn’t going to be asked if they will authorise the prosecution of people who have worked with the Russians to undermine democracy? Someone somewhere will have to give an explicit order to not arrest Trump for his crimes, that order will be a big deal, even if it’s just given by an AG to the Southern District of New York. Such an order is itself probably a crime.
And you’ve still got the problem of the State of New York.
Edited by Silasw on Aug 9th 2019 at 9:08:07 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranAll of that is stuff he could do, but none of that changes the fact that the Presidency passes to the 2020 winner. Like I said, the best Trump can hope for is becoming de facto President of the white supremacist militias.
He's welcome to try and shoot his way back into the White House using the white supremacist militias, but I feel confident that the Confederate States of Trump wouldn't last a month if they picked a fight with the actual United States government.
Trump has the option to get himself stupidly killed trying to shoot down the U.S. President. He does not have the option to remain President by successfully overpowering United States forces via the combined might of a thousand assholes with AR-15s
And you’ve still got the problem of the State of New York.
Oh, I'm sure someone will ask it in a confirmation hearing. But I doubt they'll ever actually be asked to have Trump arrested.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 9th 2019 at 3:11:41 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.I'm talking about no declaration of any kind. The Democratic President enters office, Trump leaves office, and then. Like. That's it. It's done. No one prosecutes, no one talks about prosecuting, it's just over.
"Are you going to arrest Trump?" "Ain't nobody got time to talk about that 'cause WE DOIN' HEALTHCARE."
The ability to prosecute Trump enters the picture in 2020 if he fails to win re-election, but the political ramifications of arresting a former President enter with them. It's not a good look, and it keeps Trump in the public's awareness after he's ceased to be politically relevant. It's far easier for an incoming President to just move on to whatever they want to make their Presidency about and let Trump go.
The fatal flaw with this analysis is that it ignores the base, with Trump out of office there will be renewed calls to charge him and deciding to do nothing would risk their wrath.
Not to mention the candidate in question also matters. Would Biden charge Trump? There's a good chance he wouldn't, but the odds would be very different if it was Warren in office.
I don't think the optics of charging a President who is widely unpopular and distrusted are that bad really, a fair trial would demonstrate the evidence for everyone to see.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 9th 2019 at 2:11:46 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang![]()
Sorry I should clarify, by “the entire thing assumes Trump hands over power peacefully” I didn’t mean Trump could hold onto power, I meant that him trying to hold onto power changes the entire ball game.
If Trump tries to shoot his way back into the White House after loosing he’d fail, he’d also solve this issue for us, as the case for prosecuting him then would be incredibly easily, the public might be split on “let’s prosecute the guy who stole the presidency but is now out of office” but they’d probably be unified behind “let’s prosecute to guy who tried to start an armed insurrection so he could maintain power after loosing an election”.
Edited by Silasw on Aug 9th 2019 at 9:25:35 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
The base doesn't matter at the start of a Presidency. There's about a year window where the President can do whatever the hell they want and be safely outside the public's short attention span for the midterm. Feed people six months of "Let's do healthcare!" and "Let's do free college!" and shit, and they'll forget "Arrest Trump" was ever a thing that mattered to them.
On the other hand, if they do arrest Trump, then that becomes a high-profile case that will hang in the headlines and overshadow everything else that they ever do in their Presidency. Healthcare? Who cares about healthcare?! There's the trial of the CENTURY going on so shut the f*ck up about healthcare! Ain't nobody got time for free college, there's NEW TRUMP NEWS.
And sure, right now, people are angry now because Trump is an active force in their lives, but after four years of a Warren, Sanders, Harris, etc. Presidency? He'll be pretty low on the priorities list.
Look at how many people right now, today have prosecuting George W. Bush for lying about Iraqi WMDs as one of their major political issues. Bush caused a lot of harm during his Presidency and everyone knows it, but going after him for it doesn't matter anymore. There's a dull resonating bitterness that a lot of us still hold, but nobody's 2020 vote is hinging on "What will you do about George W.?" He's just a wacky old man who shows up to political events with Clinton, Obama, and the others now.
Provided he doesn't do something stupid like try to start a militia-fueled coup, I completely expect Trump to fade into that same background once he leaves office. By 2022, "Russian Traitor Justice-Obstructing Criminal Trump" will just be "Former President Buttface". We don't like him, but we got too much stuff in the future to deal with to waste time hashing out why.
I realize that sucks. It's a hard pill to swallow to know that Trump's probably going to get away with everything. But. Like. He almost certainly is. It will make any incoming President's political agenda a lot easier if they start over fresh and let the Trump Storm blow over rather than to start kicking that hornet's nest again and allow Trump to define their Presidency too.
Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 9th 2019 at 3:29:03 AM
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.You’re still ignoring the state issue, the State of New York doesn’t need the consent of the president to charge Donald Trump once he’s out of office, Bush never committed any state crimes in a blue state to the best of my knowledge.
Edited by Silasw on Aug 9th 2019 at 9:28:55 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranThe state of New York can't charge Trump for federal crimes like conspiracy to defraud the United States or obstructing an FBI investigation. The big stuff everyone wants him to go down for, that's out of New York's jurisdiction.
So, yeah, New York might make Trump pay a few fines for tax shenanigans. But that's about the most I'd expect to see out of them.
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.Incidentally, since I was paging back all comments in this thread about the Evil Turtle, back when Bernie went in front of FOX there was also a discussion on whether it was a good idea. It was on this page, if people want background
.

Have you honestly not heard of any racists/bigots/right-wing assholes who have had their minds changed?
Funny enough, Kyle Kulinski brings up this point is his video too. I quote:
"When Bernie convinces people to agree on many important issues it's better to say: *Oh cool, you agree now!* than *Hey fuck off, you were once bad and wrong, so I've now put you in a little box and tucked you neatly away with the irredeemable deplorables and I will insist that you stay there, no matter how much you evolve, no matter how much you change, no matter how much you've had sense talked into you.*"
If the Left wants to win this battle, they also need to learn to forgive people who want to make up for their previous behaviour and give them a chance to become better.
Edited by Forenperser on Aug 9th 2019 at 10:05:32 AM
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian