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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286726: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:17:23 PM

[up] I never talked about hypotheticals. I merely talked about the responses to the news piece about the woman who called for Mitch McConnell's death.

Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 6th 2019 at 12:18:51 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286727: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:18:43 PM

Yeah while the rules about supporting political violence aren’t equally enforced that’s because not all countries are equal when it comes to political violence being a legitimate and needed means of political expression.

The US is not yet Syria, Iran or Venezuela, so calls for/supporting violence are still a no go.

I’m sure that if Mc Connell loses in 2020 and then tries to take the senate by force via the KKK the mods will allow calls for (government administered) violence against him, but we’re not there yet.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 6th 2019 at 9:21:45 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286728: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:20:12 PM

[up][up] Yeah, that’s gonna be a no go from me.

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286729: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:20:22 PM

... You guys act like I'm asking you to support her call for violence.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286730: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:23:58 PM

No, you’re asking us to act as if it’s an acceptable part of the political discourse, which it’s not, we’re not yet that far gone.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
bitemytail Since: Dec, 2011
#286731: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:26:39 PM

~Physical Stamina

Carolyn Mc Carthy, assuming you're asking me who was in the YouTube video.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286732: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:26:57 PM

I never talked about hypotheticals. I merely talked about the responses to the news piece about the woman who called for Mitch Mc Connell's death.

That's my point, hypotheticals are where political violence could be acceptable. In the reality we live in, advocating for that kind of violence is counterproductive and idiotic.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 6th 2019 at 2:28:43 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286733: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:35:43 PM

[up] & [up][up][up]: I was calling out the conceit that you can universally judge everyone that ever vocally expresses a desire for a politician's death as immoral when you almost certainly did not go through anything remotely close to the emotional and/or physical suffering that some of those who make such calls have gone through that drove them to give up on any other course of action.

Like, take the parents of those Latin American immigrants who have had their families torn apart, traumatized, tortured, and in some cases even killed by the deliberate and knowing actions of the Trump administration. By the logic you guys are using, any of them that wish for the death of anyone that was knowingly complict in their suffering is immoral.

I don't ask for you to change your opinions. I just ask that you don't pretend said opinions are objective and universal without providing a damn good reason to back such assertation.

Oh, also: "illegal" and "immoral" only partially overlap. I despise it when someone assumes that the former always implies the latter.

Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 6th 2019 at 12:39:15 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#286734: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:41:29 PM

>>For someone who has guns as one of their main issues, what are their options? It's not like the Democrats are known for their gun friendly policy suggestions.

>What’s so unfriendly to responsible gun owners about background checks?

>Keeping hands out of emotionally unstable people =/= gun-unfriendly.

>Soban: Show me a Democratic candidate for President who wants to "take away everyone's guns".

...

You know, perhaps you should put those goalposts back where you found them.

I merely stated what I think is blindingly obvious. Democrats are not known for their gun friendly policies.

A good example of this is doing something like banning barrel shrouds. A barrel shroud is a covering attached to the barrel of a firearm that partially or completely encircles the barrel, which prevents operators from injuring themselves on a hot barrel. It's a safety feature that got banned in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban. This was widely ridiculed by pretty much everyone who owns a gun as being pretty dopey. However, it expired in 2004 and we've had a good fifteen additional years to learn from that mistake. Oh, wait, they didn't. And by them I mean such obscure politicians such as Dianne Feinstein, Kamala Harris, Cory Booker, Kirsten Gillibrand, Amy Klobuchar, Bernie Sanders, and Elizabeth Warren.

That's not even getting into more contentious issues. It's one of the stupidist bans that had been widely panned for being stupid, and even in 2019 they are including it in their proposal. Didn't anyone say "Hey, why don't we take out this one stupid feature that only shows how much we don't understand how guns work"?

It's not bad faith to simply point out what should be obvious to everyone.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286735: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:52:36 PM

[up][up] If those people actually wanted to do something about the Trump administration, publicly wishing for the deaths of its officials is probably the least effective thing possible.

So, not only immoral, but also useless.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 6th 2019 at 2:53:22 AM

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286736: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:55:09 PM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286737: Aug 6th 2019 at 2:58:57 PM

[up] Not knowing it’s ineffective and self-sabotaging doesn’t change the fact that it is. And I’ll point out that it’s incredibly obvious it is those things.

Unless you value momentary catharsis more than actual action, there’s no way that position holds up.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 6th 2019 at 2:59:47 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286738: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:04:07 PM

I don't think pointing out how pointless and stupid their desire is would in any way qualify as "callous".

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 6th 2019 at 3:04:25 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286739: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:10:11 PM

[up] I'm not taking issue with pointing out that it's pointless or stupid. Please stop shoving words that I never said in my mouth.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286740: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:14:36 PM

Then what are you taking issue with?

As everyone has pointed out, violent revenge is morally questionable and extremely unhelpful. If you agree with that, then what?

They should have sent a poet.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#286741: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:20:59 PM

You're not saying that it's morally questionable (ambiguous/gray, depends on circumstances). You're saying that it's immoral (absolute black vs. white), and act like that's an objective assessment.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286742: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:21:23 PM

You know, perhaps you should put those goalposts back where you found them.

I want to snark but I’m going to hold it, instead I’d like to say that I genuinely appreciate you responding. We can have a good productive discussion when you actually respond and provide examples of things and it’d be nice if we could have solid discussions be the norm and the not the exception.

A good example of this is doing something like banning barrel shrouds.

Yep it is, you’re in fact completely right that anyone supporting a 1 to 1 reintroduction of the AWB is showing gross ignorance on the subject of guns. The AWB is a stupid bit of overreach, it’s much saner and simpler to do something like make states have gun licences and that said licences meet certain basic standards.

I was calling out the conceit that you can universally judge everyone that ever vocally expresses a desire for a politician's death as immoral when you almost certainly did not go through anything remotely close to the emotional and/or physical suffering that some of those who make such calls have gone through that drove them to give up on any other course of action.

I don’t think a full judgment was ever made on the person making the call for violence, just a judgment on the morality of that one action.

Also I’d strongly suggest not making assumptions about people in this thread, I’m pretty sure we’ve got people who are at risk (or have family at risk) from radicalised ICE agents grabbing anyone who looks brown or who are prime targets for mass murder’s that are expanding under Trump or are liable to be a prime target for the white supremacists being radicalised under Trump.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 6th 2019 at 10:27:39 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286743: Aug 6th 2019 at 3:24:24 PM

[up][up] in this specific context I would say it’s immoral. Though I’m going to point out that at this point you’re just quibbling over terminology.

Revenge violence has no place in modern society.

They should have sent a poet.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286744: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:04:43 PM

fuck it

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 6th 2019 at 7:44:05 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Imca (Veteran)
#286745: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:11:10 PM

Pistols are way more dangerous then assault rifles, an "assault rifle" has never been used in a violent crime in the USnote , yet over 70% of them are committed with pistols.... 60% for mass shootings.

So you kinda have that backwards if you want to go for effectiveness and not fear mongering.

As for the often touted "AR-15" the reason it makes the news so often is just where number, it's the most popular rifle in the US for a large number of reasons ranging from user comfort (it is incredibly gentle to shoot, making it a good choice for new people to the sport), to customization.... you can get it in everything from shotgun, to scoped target rifle, to "it fits in my drawer" form.... it's a numbers problem with the statistics... like if you ever check out the rifle section of a store that sells them basicly everything in the 800$ to 3000$ range is going to be some flavor of ar-15

Edited by Imca on Aug 6th 2019 at 4:20:40 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286746: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:27:12 PM

[up][up] What would be the point of that? How would it even be enforced?

They should have sent a poet.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#286747: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:31:54 PM

Like Immy said, the problem by far and away in gun related crimes are handguns.

We need legislation that actually looks at the data and addresses the problems we have, not whatever makes us feel better or gets rid of the scariest sounding object.

Oh really when?
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#286748: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:36:32 PM

A good example of this is doing something like banning barrel shrouds. A barrel shroud is a covering attached to the barrel of a firearm that partially or completely encircles the barrel, which prevents operators from injuring themselves on a hot barrel. It's a safety feature that got banned in the Federal Assault Weapons Ban.

It's a safety feature on fully automatic guns like Assault Rifles and SMGs... The 1994 FAWB only banned barrel shrouds on semi-automatic pistols and even then only if it was in combination with one or more of the other banned features.

The whole point of the FAWB as it ended up getting accepted (after all the really meaty stuff was amended out) was to make guns less cool, therefore less attractive to people who weren't serious about sport shooting or self defence.

And here's something: The FAWB didn't reduce regular gun crime by much (maybe 1% or something), but it resulted in a noticeable reduction in mass shootings. After it ended up not getting renewed, mass shootings rose again.

Edited by Robrecht on Aug 6th 2019 at 1:38:57 PM

Angry gets shit done.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286749: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:42:55 PM

[up] And yet most mass shootings are done with plain old semi-automatic handguns that would have been perfectly legal under the 1994 AWB.

I’d rather have a robust federal licensing requirement that would be much more effective at preventing gun deaths across the board.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 6th 2019 at 4:43:58 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Imca (Veteran)
#286750: Aug 6th 2019 at 4:47:06 PM

Licensing is a good start, but as I have stated before I would personally go for ammo restrictions as well, implement some kind of policy where you have to return your spent brass to get get more cartridges.

It has the benefits of preventing hoarding, not interfering with reloading, and prerestriction rounds would naturally use themselfs up.

Additionaly, you could just have ammo be unlimited at firing ranges, with the condition that it doesn't leave the range to help alleviate concerns about how a days shooting could use up a lot of ammo.


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