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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286476: Aug 3rd 2019 at 7:44:43 PM

You seem to be blatantly ignoring the bit where I've explicitly and repeatedly said that that's not what I'm trying to imply. And now you're accusing me of putting words in your mouth when I point out that you seem to be ignoring that bit.

Saying one thing is higher priority than another does 'not mean that both things can't be done at the same thing, and to suggest it does is a borderline malicious misinterpretation. It's a matter of which one gets more resources and manpower allocated to it, and stuff like that. To suggest that my argument imply that gun control should get 100% of the resources and fighting white nationalism gets none of it until we're done with that is completely putting words in my mouth. Because that would, of course, be an utterly idiotic thing to suggest and I've repeatedly clarified that I'm not saying that.

Then maybe don't use words like "first" and "second" in the first place, as that is what you imply by using them whether you mean to or not. Why even talk about "priorities" if you're not trying to suggest some order of operations?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 3rd 2019 at 10:46:52 AM

i'm tired, my friend
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286477: Aug 3rd 2019 at 7:54:04 PM

The federal government has enough manpower and resources for both gun control and extremism to be handled seriously. Not to mention they’d be handled by entirely different parts of the government.

They should have sent a poet.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#286478: Aug 3rd 2019 at 7:55:46 PM

I’m at the point now where I feel like we should start treating super pro gun people like climate change deniers. People to be completely ignored while we do our best to save our planet (or children in this case)

New Survey coming this weekend!
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#286479: Aug 3rd 2019 at 7:58:34 PM

The problem in part being of course, that the fundamental arguments of a Pro-gun person might have a point, whereas the climate change deniers are pretty divorced from reality.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#286480: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:00:59 PM

[up][up][up][up]Priorities isn't a word that implies order of operations where it's being applied to a government. In that context, It's a word that implies resource allocation, because, as you've noted, order of operations isn't a useful concept to apply to entities as large and mutli-faceted as governments.

That is, of course, a semantics argument and I'm not necessarily going to blame you for not knowing that, but I am kind of inclined to blame you for interpreting what I said in a way that I repeatedly and explicitly said I didn't mean, and then posting an angry rant at me for implying a thing I repeatedly and explicitly said I didn't mean.

Possibly this post is a bad idea and dragging us too far into the weeds, but I'm currently frustrated enough that I'm going to post it anyway.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286481: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:03:01 PM

[up] How is this a resource allocation issue, though? The legislative branch deals with gun control, while the executive and judicial branches deal with extremism. An equal amount of resources could theoretically be allocated to both with no disruption to either.

They should have sent a poet.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#286482: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:14:31 PM

Should we try to pass gun control legislation, or should we work to combat radicalized white supremacists?

Yes.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#286483: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:15:58 PM

The Lt. Governor of Texas apparently issued a warning to Antifa to "stay out of Texas" now, for some reason.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Aug 3rd 2019 at 5:17:33 PM

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#286484: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:23:25 PM

Another foreigner here. I completely agree that "combat the ideology" and "combat the tools these acts are carried out with" shouldn't be treated as either/or, because both are important. The ideology does harm even without guns and people other than those ascribing to this ideology do harm with guns. Yes there is a huge overlap, but it isn't exclusive.

I also agree that as long as Trump is president it will be hard to impossible to gain ground on either of those fronts.

You say America is not the only one with a gun culture? Fine. But which other country has it as a constitutional right that you are entitled to have a gun? I know, I know, that legislation was made when much of the country was unknown by the new settlers and there were a lot of big and dangerous animals around and also probably in mind with militias which is different than the standpoint modern gun activists take, but all that amendment says is you have the right to bear arms. Nothing about militias, nothing about controlling it for hunting.

The UK banned them after shootings. Australia banned them after shootings. New Zealand is planning to ban them. Wise. Up.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286485: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:25:35 PM

[up]x5 First of all, since one directly correlates to the other, the talk of priorities is still misguided in the first place.

Second, what in the world is "resource allocation" supposed to mean? We have enough resources that we don't need to super hard on white nationalism and drag our feet with gun control.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 3rd 2019 at 11:25:55 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#286486: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:26:09 PM

but all that amendment says is you have the right to bear arms. Nothing about militias, nothing about controlling it for hunting.

Not true on the militia part.

Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#286487: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:27:39 PM

[up] Ok I stand corrected, I still don't see that meaning "you only have the right to carry a gun if you are in an organized militia." It still means "you have the right to a gun, period, because then maybe we will have enough people with guns to set up a militia if needed."

Edited by akanesarumara on Aug 3rd 2019 at 5:28:30 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286488: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:31:10 PM

That actually is exactly what it means but the Supreme Court has stretched it to a ridiculous length. You could technically strike it down as well as we used to have a ban on alcohol.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286489: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:31:12 PM

Said militia is now the most powerful nation-based army in the world.

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
Draedi Since: Mar, 2019
#286490: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:31:51 PM

Here's the issue.

The gun control debate was de-facto dead the moment we let white kids in an upper class neighborhood die and absolutely nothing was done.

We've just been in denial.

The gun control debate is done, short of the USA politically collapsing (which really isn't that far fetched in the coming decades to be perfectly honest).

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286491: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:32:34 PM

The thing about Antifa is that it is loathed in a lot of corners of the Right because it is a scary realization of a number of factoids that lie at the heart of the National Race Delusion (by which I mean white supremacy). They imply that not only are there people who care passionately about these issues but that they will fight for them. That the law doesn't necessarily protect people from violating the law to hurt people. Also, the fact that Antifa in America has a lot of the same origins as the Alt-Right just in opposition to it. When Alt-Righters are doxxed or have their own tools turned against them, it's because they're facing people who are from the same massive sites and internet culture.

Their very existence makes a minute tiny risk to these people of being humiliated, assaulted (probably with milkshakes over fists), and exposed.

They prove just what an enormous pile of cowardly shits these bullies are.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286492: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:34:30 PM

Oh, I forgot to mention this, but the "antifa get out of Texas" thing is almost certainly a form of whataboutism in the wake of the alt-right shooting that was just revealed as an alt-right shooting.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286493: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:38:28 PM

The gun control debate was de-facto dead the moment we let white kids in an upper class neighborhood die and absolutely nothing was done.

We've just been in denial.

The gun control debate is done, short of the USA politically collapsing (which really isn't that far fetched in the coming decades to be perfectly honest).

People overestimate just how much privilege can get you in the United States as the rich and powerful don't have much loyalty to one another. "You scratch my back" doesn't apply when it's potentially interfering with money. Opioids are a wonderful example that whites are just as vulnerable to the 1% (The Assholeilluminati) in the long run and can be marketed just as thoroughly because they don't care. Poor and minorities are more vulnerable but it'll take a realization that the GOP/corporates don't care about ANYONE but themselves to overthrow them.

The same argument happened in Matwan during the early 20th century when the coal miners realized the rural whites, blacks, and Eastern European immigrants were all getting fucked—lots of middle claers too.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:42:05 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
akanesarumara Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: Abstaining
#286494: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:38:48 PM

@ Charles, yeah not sure about the alcohol comparison because that was never a constitutional right to begin with as far as I know, everyone just assumed it and "everyone just assumed it was ok" is hella tough to use as defense in court. As for the Supreme Court stretching it, guess there's more than just simplicity that explains why the 2nd amendment is usually condensed into 5 words (the right to bear arms).

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286495: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:43:08 PM

The whole “gun culture is weird and gross” thing also feels like it forgets that the US isn’t the only country with a strong gun culture.

But how similar is their gun culture to that of the US? Because from an outside perspective it doesn’t seem to just be that the US has a heavy gun culture, it seems to be that the US has a heavy human on human gun culture. US gun culture seems to put a lot of emphasis on using a gun against other people.

Other countries have strong gun culture, but I suspect that their gun culture is focused more on hunting, national defence against foreign enemies and sports, and much less on “good guy with a gun”, “protection from mugging”, “the police are hours away” “living in a bad neighbourhood” and “fight the government when they go crazy”.

A gun culture isn’t inherently toxic, but the American brand of gun culture sure does look pretty toxic.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:45:30 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286496: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:43:14 PM

Re: Gun Control

The "debate" is actually one that I think is unfortunate because it's not actually one that is in the hands of regular people. It never was and has always been a lobbying issue. The public's opinions on gun control has always been mixed and it was Mayor Rudolph Giuliani (of all fucking people) who illustrated that there's no actual protections for gun owners if the government chooses to exert itself.

One day, he banned all hand guns in New York City and everyone blinked. The same can be done anywhere, theoretically, but the politicians who are bought say otherwise. It's just a question of having politicians who aren't bought. The thing is, if you DID ban all X guns you're still dealing with 400,000,000+ guns in the United States.

In Civilian Hands.

The reason I'm iffy about gun control as the "miracle solution" is I don't think a lot of people understand the problem or their proposed solution because they live in an area where guns are NOT ubiquitous.

There's also the fact that there's a lot more gun control than people think but it's completely unenforced. Which hits back to the Prohibition matter. In a lot of parts of America, a lot of people consider guns the same way you'd sell any other property or collectible—so no one cares up to and including police. The fact the police resell a lot of the guns they confiscate versus destroying them is part of the issue.

Which summarized is my opinion is:

  • This is an issue that has middling support in many areas, massive support elsewhere
  • Comprehensive laws can be made but they are blocked by the Usual Suspects.
  • The laws are ignored in many places
  • The sheer scope of the problem is almost beyond description

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:45:42 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286497: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:52:06 PM

But how similar is their gun culture to that of the US? Because from an outside perspective it doesn’t seem to just be that the US has a heavy gun culture, it seems to be that the US has a heavy human on human gun culture. US gun culture seems to put a lot of emphasis on using a gun against other people.

My inclination is that it's less gun culture than white nationalism and crime. Basically, it's that in America there's so many guns and so much easy access that the very violent white nationalists are ubiquotous.

We don't have just a gun problem.

We have terrorism and uprising problem.

We just deny we have one.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:56:34 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#286498: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:56:01 PM

We absolutely have a gun problem. It's not just white supremacists who commit gun crimes. It's edgy teens, misogynists, the undiagnosed mentally ill, and people who one day just snap, and in all these cases, the ubiquity of guns in our culture means they can carry out a slaughter with impunity.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#286499: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:56:25 PM

About Texas Lt. Governor Dan Patrick telling Antifa to stay out of El Paso: It seems there is a planned 10-day Antifa "Border Resistance" military training tour that is supposed to start on September 1st in El Paso.

Flyers for the event were posted on Twitter by hard-right journalist Andy Ngo on Monday, so the claims of the event are dubious at best.

Source? A Fox News article I found off of the Texas Politics subreddit which I won't link here to not give them more clicks.

Edited by tclittle on Aug 3rd 2019 at 10:57:24 AM

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#286500: Aug 3rd 2019 at 8:57:11 PM

For what it's worth, it should be noted that mass shootings are very much a minority of gun violence.

Leviticus 19:34

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