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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#286426: Aug 3rd 2019 at 2:42:31 PM

I mean, my feeling on that is that the shooter's personal motivations are largely irrelevant, and certainly not worth seriously considering.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#286427: Aug 3rd 2019 at 2:45:09 PM

I just hope that not all criticism of Democrat candidates is ignored or dismissed due to being "Russian Propaganda". Using "Russian propaganda" as a shield against all criticism is not going to be a good look.

Except this thread is one of the few I can trust to actually do fairminded criticism of the Democrats and Democratic candidates that isn't purely the result of bias or unicorn syndrome.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286428: Aug 3rd 2019 at 2:45:45 PM

It might be notable if it's political.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286429: Aug 3rd 2019 at 2:54:34 PM

Soban, can I suggest that you try and provide more to this discussion than just “Democrats also bad”? I’m sure you have valuable insights, but they’re not coming through in your posts.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#286430: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:03:29 PM

[up][up][up][up]The shooter's motivations on their own merits are obviously worthless. However, they can used, such as to help inform our understanding of the depth and extent of US domestic terrorism, for example.

Edited by Eschaton on Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:07:04 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#286431: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:05:29 PM

It might be notable if it's political.

This. There are a rather large number of national conversations happening today that both why this shooting happened and how the shooter acquired their weapons may be relevant to.

I know, I know, "politicizing a national tragedy" and all. But. See. Politicizing shootings is how you hopefully get shootings to stop occurring. This is going to keep happening until enough people are outraged by the Whys and Hows that they vote in a majority of elected officials who will do something about them.

I stopped being shocked by the daily mass shootings a long time ago. Now, I get mad at the state of the nation that allows them to occur. I encourage other people to be mad too. It's time to stop treating mass shootings like earthquakes, hurricanes, or other unavoidable freak acts of nature.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:07:45 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#286432: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:13:38 PM

People complaining about tragedies being politicized have completely missed the point of politics. Politics is the applied science of engineering policy. To say that you shouldn't politicize a tragedy is every bit as asinine as saying an engineer shouldn't attempt to redesign a car to be safer after looking at data from car crashes. If you aren't supposed to politicize tragedy, what the hell are you supposed to politicize?

Leviticus 19:34
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286433: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:13:41 PM

If a shooter has political motivations by definition it's politicized from the get-go. "Don't politicize shootings" is a talking point right-wing pundits use to shut down conversation.

i'm tired, my friend
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#286434: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:20:08 PM

Perhaps I should clarify that the reason I find the shooter's motivations to be largely irrelevant is I because I believe that no matter what they were, the real reason mass shootings keep happening is the lack of gun control.

So even if this guy's motivations were political, I believe that only matters in the sense that it raises the possibility that he might not have been working alone.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#286435: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:21:03 PM

The general impression I get from "Don't politicise the shootings" is that it's about not talking about the person who carried out the shootings over the actual victims who are quickly buried under the attention the shoot gets

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NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#286436: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:23:46 PM

[up][up]That doesn't really follow. For example, there's been a lot of talk about an FBI report recently released about how the majority of domestic terrorism is motivated by white nationalism rather than, say, radical Islam or anarchists or whatever. This is useful information because it means that we can combat domestic terrorism by combating white nationalism. Why they did it is irrelevant to whether what they did is acceptable (it's not under any circumstances), but knowing their motive may let us understand what drove them to do it, which can then be put to use in making sure it doesn't happen again.

Edited by NativeJovian on Aug 3rd 2019 at 6:23:59 AM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286437: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:41:39 PM

[up][up]We can walk and chew gum at the same time. We can pay tribute to the victims while discussing the political motivations behind their murders.

i'm tired, my friend
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#286438: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:56:26 PM

Aside from the political implications, it could also be used to try (key word) to establish some sort of psychological profile so that future would-be killers might be intercepted before they commit the atrocity. Plus what Eschaton said.

Of course, trying to set up such a system would immediately be opposed by the NRA and its cohorts.

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 3rd 2019 at 6:59:29 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286439: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:58:23 PM

Perhaps I should clarify that the reason I find the shooter's motivations to be largely irrelevant is I because I believe that no matter what they were, the real reason mass shootings keep happening is the lack of gun control.

So even if this guy's motivations were political, I believe that only matters in the sense that it raises the possibility that he might not have been working alone.

Lack of gun control is one of those things that is completely right and at least 50% missing the point as well. Mass shootings are able to happen because of guns because guns are the weapon. However, from Charles Whitman onward, the decision to commit acts of mass murder in America are not inspired by guns. They're made easier by guns.

I wish I lived in a world where without guns, I think these spree killings wouldn't happen. Instead, i believe they'd happen with explosives, car attacks, and even knives.

One recent study has that Serial Killers and Mass Murderers are/may in fact actually the same people. Public gun violence has caused the former to do the latter rather than the latter. In other words, if we get gun control under wraps, they'll just go back to kidnapping women and children to murder.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:00:30 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#286440: Aug 3rd 2019 at 3:58:49 PM

Also,for some people diving into political motive behind the killings is extra upsetting,especially when the shooting might have just happened

With the shooter being taken alive I take as sign that they wanted to be captured alive,most spree shooters shoot themselves after the killings,which is probably what they wanted to do all along but some reason they have this desire to go out with a bang that kills and hurts a lot of people,almost comparable to suicide bombings

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286441: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:02:25 PM

White guy, just turned 21, manifesto full of alt-right garbage, anti immigration talking points, inspired by Christchurch.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#286442: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:10:28 PM

> One recent study has that Serial Killers and Mass Murderers are/may in fact actually the same people. Public gun violence has caused the former to do the latter rather than the latter. In other words, if we get gun control under wraps, they'll just go back to kidnapping women and children to murder.

See,I think this is horse shit as they're two different mind sets,Serial Killers don't intend to get caught and go on killing for often years before they're caught,mass murders want to kill a load of people quickly and then die as they don't care about being apprehended,they want people to know what they have done

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286443: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:15:32 PM

[up][up]And no one important is surprised.

i'm tired, my friend
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#286444: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:20:22 PM

>Soban, can I suggest that you try and provide more to this discussion than just “Democrats also bad”? I’m sure you have valuable insights, but they’re not coming through in your posts.

If I'm honest, I don't feel you need to be told that the Republicans are bad. One memorable quote from this thread is "Because one party is actively evil these days."

What I'm trying to do (and probably failing) is introduce some ideas that I am hearing elsewhere. This is also somewhat of a Vent for me as talking about politics on Facebook is... a poor decision.

Let us consider two of my recent points. First, on Russian interference. I like most of you don't have any doubt that the Russians are actively interfering with our elections through social media manipulation. If I was Russia, I'd also be spending a lot of money to put America into chaos and being at each other's throats. It's not a bad strategy and one that is clearly working very well.

Consider for a moment if one of the democratic candidates started to use "Well, that's Russian propaganda" or something else similar to all of the various criticism that they receive. Even if it is true that it's happening. The Russians are magnifying some of their flaws. I feel like the people here would like that person less and not vote for them.

Similarly, it's something that I could see the Democrats doing, even with evidence that it's actually happening. Part of this is because it's often not inaccurate. Harris didn't do a good job of defense at the last debate. This leaves people who are undecided thinking 'no, it's not just Russian interference, it's an actual problem that you are not responding to.'

I think this is a very real danger for the Democrats as a whole, partially because their right.

Second, I mentioned Williamson's emotional/spiritual appeal and how that is something that is needed. Williamson was the only person who poped out to me during the debates. If Williamson (who is crazy and shouldn't be the nominee) is the only one who pops out, then you've got a problem.

Obama 2008 didn't run on the substance of what he was going to do in office, (though he is said to have had it too) he ran primarily on this emotional/spiritual appeal. I still remember the answer to the question of "Forget for a moment why I shouldn't vote for Mc Cain, why should I vote positively for Obama?" The answer I got was "because he's black". While they were not able to articulate it, what they meant was what Obama's election meant. It meant that had made progress, that we had visually changed from how things were. That American had improved. And when I went to the ballot box as a staunch Republican at the time, I hesitated for a moment. Considering putting Obama's name down because I knew that I'd be voting for America's first black president. That I'd be a part (a very small part) of the hope and change that America was running for. That I'd be able to tell my children that I voted for Obama. I didn't, but that's a different story.

Trump 2016 also ran on an a emotional/spiritual appeal. You can't tell me he ran on substantive policy. "Make America Great Again." For good or ill, it is a slogan that had resounded with America and will go down in history as one of the greatest campaign slogans of all time. However, the appeal of that isn't a substantive policy appeal. It's an spiritual appeal to a better time, that by voting for Trump we can be a part of doing something great for our country. While polarizing, (A polarization that pushed me away from him) Trump also has his own sort of Charisma. And his appeal, if viewed solely through a emotional/spiritual one is appealing, I don't think there is anyone who doesn't want America to be great.

Others have said that this is just exploiting flaws in the human cognition to enhance their 'vapid and worthless' message. However, I have to ask if it works with something that is 'vapid and worthless' why can't it work with something more radical? Why can't someone with good ideas use it for good, (like many would say that Obama did)?

Some have characterized it all as "Why can't we all just get along?" And in a way, their not wrong. Most people do want our politicians to get along even if they disagree. They want to work together to solve the issues and the people who are currently there aren't doing it.

As things stand, the Democrats aren't using what has proven to be a very potent tool in winning elections. The attitude of "Well, I don't want to use that tool" is a sentiment that has been spoken often, often by those left behind in the dust of history.

I feel these are both good points to make. Agree or disagree with the points, but I hope you also find them interesting or thought provoking. If not, well I'm not sure there is much I can do for you.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286445: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:22:57 PM

Consider for a moment if one of the democratic candidates started to use "Well, that's Russian propaganda" or something else similar to all of the various criticism that they receive. Even if it is true that it's happening. The Russians are magnifying some of their flaws. I feel like the people here would like that person less and not vote for them.

Similarly, it's something that I could see the Democrats doing, even with evidence that it's actually happening. Part of this is because it's often not inaccurate. Harris didn't do a good job of defense at the last debate. This leaves people who are undecided thinking 'no, it's not just Russian interference, it's an actual problem that you are not responding to.'

I think this is a very real danger for the Democrats as a whole, partially because their right.

Has this actually happened at all? No? Then it's not relevant.

i'm tired, my friend
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#286446: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:26:01 PM

That doesn't really follow. For example, there's been a lot of talk about an FBI report recently released about how the majority of domestic terrorism is motivated by white nationalism rather than, say, radical Islam or anarchists or whatever. This is useful information because it means that we can combat domestic terrorism by combating white nationalism. Why they did it is irrelevant to whether what they did is acceptable (it's not under any circumstances), but knowing their motive may let us understand what drove them to do it, which can then be put to use in making sure it doesn't happen again.

This is putting the cart before the horse. Like, yes, combating white nationalism is a worthy goal, but a higher priority is stopping mass shootings and terrorism in general. Understanding why this particular person did it doesn't matter if you make it impractical for anyone, regardless of their motivations, to perform a mass shooting.

Like how in every country other than the US, a mass shootings are rare because every time one happens, legislation is introduced that prevents another one like it from happened.

Which, to be absolutely clear, is my perspective as a non-American who finds your national obsession with guns to be terrifying and alien, and is unsure why so many of you are unwilling to accept the existence of the connection between that and the fact that the US is only country where mass shootings are common.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#286447: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:30:50 PM

Soban it seems like a lot of your fears are about hypotheticals, which is... projecting. Yes, we all do that sometimes, including myself, and it may be true from experience that there's a lot of idiots who are guilty of such behaviors, and for all kinds of issues, but a lot of it is random idiots on the Internet, and this place is one of the ones that does better about steering away from that kind of discourse. Due to Sturgeon's Law it's not really a good representative of one's political beliefs; the reason many of us are so bothered by the Republicans is because the official elected leaders themselves are exhibiting that kind of behavior. There's nothing to preemptively call out until people here actually engage in it for real, otherwise it's not in good faith.

Edited by AlleyOop on Aug 3rd 2019 at 7:34:38 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#286448: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:32:01 PM

Which, to be absolutely clear, is my perspective as a non-American who finds your national obsession with guns to be terrifying and alien, and is unsure why so many of you are unwilling to accept the existence of the connection between that and the fact that the US is only country where mass shootings are common.

Alright, how much hunting do you do? Do you live in an area where target shooting is a sport? Does it take more than an hour for the police to get to your area if you report a disturbance? Do you collect anything?

I'm all for gun control but the "guns make you crazy" thing is about as accurate as GTA makes you a mass murderer. Literally everyone in my area owns a gun except for me and I'm not exaggerating as my grandmothers, mother, dad, dad's best friends, and neighbors all have firearms. None of them have gone on killing sprees.

The problem is in a community of 15,000 people with guns, if 1 out of a 1000 goes killing that's 15 people.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:34:40 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#286449: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:32:43 PM

We can (and should) do both. Actually look into gun control seriously and treat white nationalism as an actual problem.

Which means the first step is voting out Trump, since neither is going to happen as long as he's in the WH.

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#286450: Aug 3rd 2019 at 4:48:21 PM

I’ll also point out that mass shootings have very little to do with gun control. The ideology behind them is more important.

Gun control is important because it will reduce the overall number of gun deaths from things like accidental shootings, suicides, and single-victim homicide. Mass shootings are a tiny fraction of the gun deaths that occur in this country, there are around a hundred gun deaths every day in the US.

They should have sent a poet.

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