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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#286126: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:02:53 AM

That paints an even grimmer picture — that rightwing leaning people have better odds in the USA.

Well, they do.

Structurally speaking most of the institutions in the US favor right-wing policies and voters, and even beyond that, most people are going to have something of a conservative bias even if they aren't right-wingers per se, because the right represents the status quo. Progressive ideas are a lot scarier to them because they represent something completely different.

Consider the fact that the last two times democrats managed to get into office, it took a lot of factors coming together. An exceptionally charismatic candidate that managed to rally the whole party behind them, a terrible economy, etc.

Basically it says quite a bit that the GOP can field out mediocre or downright disastrous candidates like George W. Bush and Trump and still win while democrats have to field out Bill Clintons* and Obamas at the right time to even have a chance.

(I'm only talking about Clinton in terms of his personal charisma and affability, which was one of the main reasons behind him being a strong candidate at the time.)

Edited by Draghinazzo on Jul 31st 2019 at 2:03:30 PM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#286127: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:05:55 AM

[up][up]Hmmm, Googling I can only find one recent op-ed along those lines, criticizing Warren's trade plan.

Elizabeth Warren's trade plan is bad politics and worse policy

You'd have to go back further for other articles criticizing some of Warren's plans, like more op-eds pointing out the issues with her wealth tax thing.

Edited by M84 on Aug 1st 2019 at 2:06:52 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286128: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:09:41 AM

I think for some people they recognise that Obama couldn’t get stuff done due to republicans blocking him, but feel that he should have responded to their obstruction with Then Let Me Be Good rather than more offers of compromise. Republicans would never meet him in the middle, so why did he keep trying to meet them in the middle?

The threat of Russia is probably a key example of this, when faced with a hostile government meddling in US elections with domestic support Obama chose to compromise with Republicans and didn’t warn the public or take any serious action against Russia.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#286129: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:12:13 AM

[up]Granted, the Obama election marked the point where the Republican party went pants-on-head insane, up until then talk about compromise was still seen as a reasonable course of action.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#286130: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:13:27 AM

And it took nearly a decade for people to realize it wasn't.

i'm tired, my friend
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286131: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:14:23 AM

Also, Obama ran and won on being a unifier and encouraging bipartisanship.

So ironically for all the accusations of him breaking campaign promises his repeated attempts to meet the Republicans halfway through merely behaving as he promised to behave. And it's likely that he sincerely believed in it.

That's obviously a horrid attitude to have now but without hindsight bias, I understand why he had it.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#286132: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:18:31 AM

I think people make the mistake of judging Obama's actions back then with the context we have today.

Which is just unfair, I think, the man couldn't predict the future.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#286133: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:20:12 AM

I’d argue that while the attitude made sense in 2008 and even a bit later it was obviously insane by 2016, when Obama was still compromising, as seen by how he reacted to Turtle taking Russia’s side over election interference.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286134: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:24:32 AM

That wasn't a compromise, it was Obama deciding against revealing the interference because he knew that it would just shake America's trust in democracy and result in Republicans muddying the waters.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 31st 2019 at 11:25:30 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#286135: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:30:31 AM

Williamson is making a spiritual appeal that resonates with a lot of people. I was suprised listening to some clips of her at the debate how well she resonated with me. If she actually had good policy and sane ideas, she'd be my pick to put up against Trump.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286136: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:33:15 AM

If Williamson wasn't herself she might be someone who isn't trash.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#286137: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:34:09 AM

Ugh, if Williamson gets enough of a bump to stay in the debates...

Disgusted, but not surprised
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#286138: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:38:23 AM

Williamson getting into the WH would just be changing one lunatic for another.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#286139: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:39:49 AM

If Williamson becomes President, the only winner will be measles.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#286140: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:40:28 AM

Which is exactly what the Republicans want,they're probably looking at debates and hoping for her,she's their preffered candidate as far I'm concerned,don't be too surprised if she's been funded by the Russians

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#286141: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:47:12 AM

That wasn't a compromise, it was Obama deciding against revealing the interference because he knew that it would just shake America's trust in democracy and result in Republicans muddying the waters.

It was still a mistake, though.

At a time when the Russians are trying to suborn our elections, shaking Americans' trust in democracy is a good thing. The people needed to know, walking into the poll booths, that the Republican candidate for POTUS was a Russian stooge.

When an election is being interfered with, the only people who stand to gain from keeping public confidence in the election high are the people interfering with it.

Obama, like the rest of the United States including the Right, believed that Trump didn't actually have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning the election. So he opted to avoid what seemed like an unnecessary controversy. And that came back to bite him and us.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2019 at 12:48:07 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#286142: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:47:37 AM

Williamson is making a spiritual appeal that resonates with a lot of people. I was suprised listening to some clips of her at the debate how well she resonated with me. If she actually had good policy and sane ideas, she'd be my pick to put up against Trump.
Ok, ~Soban, I'll bite: What does the dark psychic forces anti-vaxxer offer that makes her a better alternative to put against Trump than literally anybody else currently running to do that themselves?

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 31st 2019 at 12:57:18 PM

DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#286143: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:54:45 AM

I think the reason Obama didn't take more measures to prevent Russian meddling is because it would inevitably have been painted as an attempt to interfere with democracy on Hillary's behalf, potentially becoming a rallying cry for Trump.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#286144: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:55:03 AM

Did the "no personal attacks" rule get suspended when I wasn't looking?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#286145: Jul 31st 2019 at 11:57:35 AM

Sorry, ~Septimus Heap I edited my post to remove the specific attack.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 31st 2019 at 1:01:09 PM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#286146: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:00:23 PM

[up]

Because of the "Can't we all just get along?" message she's bringing, in short.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286147: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:09:54 PM

It was still a mistake, though.

Maybe, but that doesn't make it any more of a compromise.

At a time when the Russians are trying to suborn our elections, shaking Americans' trust in democracy is a good thing. The people needed to know, walking into the poll booths, that the Republican candidate for POTUS was a Russian stooge.

When an election is being interfered with, the only people who stand to gain from keeping public confidence in the election high are the people interfering with it.

Obama, like the rest of the United States including the Right, believed that Trump didn't actually have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning the election. So he opted to avoid what seemed like an unnecessary controversy. And that came back to bite him and us.

No, this is entirely false.

The Russians wanted to cause chaos and have us lose faith in our democracy, it's simply false to suggest that there is no reason to keep it a secret. Obviously, stating it publicly and warning people would be good but without the Republicans, it would just muddy the waters and do the Russian's work for them.

There would be no benefit to revealing it and would just look like a deliberate attempt to interfere, thus validating Trump's narrative of the election being rigged against him.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#286148: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:16:20 PM

The Russians wanted to cause chaos and have us lose faith in our democracy, it's simply false to suggest that there is no reason to keep it a secret. Obviously, stating it publicly and warning people would be good but without the Republicans, it would just muddy the waters and do the Russian's work for them.

There would be no benefit to revealing it and would just look like a deliberate attempt to interfere, thus validating Trump's narrative of the election being rigged against him.

And I'm sure we'd wind up having to investigate those claims.

I'd rather need to have an investigation into whether Russia rigged Trump's candidacy during a Clinton administration than a Trump one. It's better for people to be nervous about the legitimacy of a fair election than to be totally confident in an unfair one.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 31st 2019 at 1:18:57 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#286149: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:29:55 PM

The Roots has a great article on the debate, Democratic Debates, Day 1: Elizabeth Warren Came to Detroit and Caught a Body

Beyond being absolutely right it's rather hilarious grin

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#286150: Jul 31st 2019 at 12:39:46 PM

>I'll bite: What does the dark psychic forces anti-vaxxer offer that makes her a better alternative to put against Trump than literally anybody else currently running to do that themselves?

I don't think she is more qualified then anybody else. In fact, she's significantly less. As others have noted, she'd be a disaster in almost every way. Which is why my statement is a qualified one not an absolute. If she had good policy. If she wasn't a crazy antivaxer. However, she doesn't have good policy (I don't think she has any) and she is crazy.

The thing that makes her stand out is what might be described as her 'spiritual' appeal. In terms of strategy (but not objective) it's very similar to Trump's Spiritual appeal. Also similar to 2008 Obama.

Yes, it's a type of emotional appeal, but it is one that has worked both for good and ill in our recent history.

It's not just "why can't we all get along". There are other canidates for that. It's about talking to the heart of America and not just it's mind whereas everyone else seems to just be appealing to the mind.

It's about being able to say something completely without content and slip through my defenses and make me want to hear more of what she has to say.

If she was as well known as Trump was or Biden is, there is little doubt in my mind she would be leading the field.

TLDR; her strategy is the one that both Obama and Trump used successfully and one that I think could work against Trump. This election could be won on the sucess of the spiritual/emotional appeal rather then on policy.


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