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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#285726: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:22:41 AM

Right now, Trump is still in office because Democrats won't impeach.

Trump will remain in office even if we do impeach. What part of this do you not understand?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jul 25th 2019 at 10:23:52 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#285727: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:28:02 AM

> Right now, Trump is still in office because Democrats won't impeach. Not because Republicans won't convict. The ball's in our court and we're sitting on it. For a valid reason, mind, even if I disagree with it - but if we aren't going to do anything with it, we should stop drawing people's attention to the fact that we're sitting on it.

It helps to quote the rest of the post.

I maintain that the impeachment efforts should be a last resort if they cant vote him out

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#285728: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:29:38 AM

If we can't vote him out, impeachment is even more off the table than it already is.

Nothing is going to look more like a naked, cynical political ploy than attempting to impeach Trump for crimes he committed in the previous term of office after failing to elect a new President in his place. We might as well erect a neon sign that reads "WITCH HUNT" while we're at it.

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#285729: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:33:45 AM

@ultimatum: First, that's only possible if we take the senate while still not getting the WH somehow. Second, the only reason we're sitting on impeachment is because the Dems' progressive wing still won't give up the idea that impeachment proceedings will be their white horse.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#285730: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:57:16 AM

We're sitting on impeachment because we don't agree on whether holding a proceeding that will inevitably fail to impeach Trump when it hits Mitch McConnell's Senate is better or worse than never impeaching Trump at all.

That is the snare that we're caught in. Either Republicans win because the Republican-led Senate refuses to hold Trump accountable for his crimes in front of the public eye, or Republicans win because the Democratic-led House is unwilling to pursue the two-years-in-the-making case for impeachment against Trump in the first place. This isn't a situation where we can win; it's just a complex argument over which defeat looks less bad for us.

But that's not the point. To impeach or not impeach isn't the issue here, nor is it really something we're allowed to be discussing. The issue here is that Mueller's testimony was a complete waste of time. At this point, there's no merit in continuing to rehash the Mueller Investigation. It's over, it's done, we have the damning evidence in hand, and we are the ones choosing not to push it forward.

The best thing we can do at this point is let it go and keep our efforts on things like the concentration camps, the school shootings, etc. The Mueller Report controversy did not end in our favor, and the less we keep reminding the public of it, the better.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:00:48 AM

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#285731: Jul 25th 2019 at 7:58:38 AM

Losing because you were defeated tends to look better then losing because you didn't fight.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#285732: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:00:52 AM

Also, hot-take, but we should probably drop the tax returns battle too. Trump is not legally required to provide his tax returns, so we don't really have a case there. And as much as the Mueller probe rehash is making our criticisms of Trump look like wild ramblings, the tax returns thing is doing it even more so.

Trump's narrative is that he's being harassed by deranged Democrats who are just butthurt that he beat Hillary Clinton. When we spend two and a half years trying to finagle ways of forcing the release of tax returns he's not legally required to release, it makes him look right.

That Stormy Daniels thing didn't help either.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:02:05 AM

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#285733: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:03:41 AM

The cases are not similar. Trump has already been ordered by the courts to divulge his tax returns. This is a simple matter of law.

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#285734: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:08:30 AM

Oh, if he's under court order, that changes things. I didn't remember that.

I do remember New York State passed a law saying they can legally provide any citizen's state tax returns to any Congressional committee without notifying him, wink wink nudge nudge.

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#285735: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:09:27 AM

[up][up] but not publicly.

Edited by Soban on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:09:40 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#285736: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:09:28 AM

The problem I see (and always saw) with the tax returns matter is that they are a fishing expedition - what are we hoping to find and why?

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#285737: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:16:36 AM

I agree that we should forget about Trumps tax returns, if only because we're clearly not getting them.

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#285738: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:18:38 AM

There is a federal law requiring the IRS to divulge tax returns for any citizen to Congress upon request.

Anyway, the purpose would be to determine if Trump has violated tax laws or has reported foreign income which would indicate that he may be getting bribed or involved in conflicts of interest. Of course it's political, but given how hard Trump has fought to keep his financial status out of the public eye, there must be something to hide.

Edited to add: By a certain point of view, any attempt to investigate or impugn Trump by Congress is a waste of time, since the only direct Constitutional remedy is impeachment and there is zero chance of him being convicted in the Senate. Our only realistic chance of removing him from office is the 2020 election.

However, all of this work does provide value regardless of its immediate futility: it shows that Democrats are willing to stand up to him, expose his dirt, and take affirmative steps to reclaim our political system.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:25:14 AM

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#285739: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:23:37 AM

What happens if we get them though?

Oh really when?
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285740: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:24:42 AM

"The only reason we want to see this is so that we can get him politically" plays really well into the witch hunt narrative. If you look hard enough, you can find fellonies on anyone. That they have to go digging like this on Trump signals that they have to look hard to find them. Which makes Trump look good.

Kayeka (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#285741: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:28:36 AM

edit: NVM

Edited by Kayeka on Jul 25th 2019 at 5:29:29 PM

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#285742: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:29:25 AM

[up][up] No, the reason they want to see them is so that Trump can be held accountable for his many crimes and ethical violations. Everything is political; you can't hold that out as a blanket poison pill against any potential action.

Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think Congress should start the impeachment process. It's not like it'll make Republicans any angrier or any more detached from reality. It's not like it'll make Democrats any less able to pass legislation through the Senate. It's not like it'll make CNN any more determined to play centrist.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:31:52 AM

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#285743: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:37:22 AM

The "Dems should start impeachment proceedings because it shows they're willing to stand up to Trump" argument falls flat for me because people will just turn on them again when it fails. Just "standing up to Trump" isn't enough for people; they want him gone and they want him gone now.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:39:54 AM

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#285745: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:38:44 AM

So what specific things that we already know about do we want evidence for? Or are we looking for something but we don't know specifically what yet? Right now, it sounds like the latter.

[up] the voters in the middle who will see the failure of impeachment as exoneration.

Edited by Soban on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:39:45 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#285746: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:38:54 AM

their voting base,dur

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 25th 2019 at 3:39:46 PM

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Lost in Space
#285747: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:40:06 AM

Umm, Democratic voters strongly support impeachment, last I checked.

These mythical undecided voters sure do get idolized a lot by politicians. I am not sure the evidence supports this, though. Winning elections is about getting your own people out to vote as much as or more than winning the hearts of the middle.

Whatever... this conversation never goes anywhere useful. I'll drop it.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:42:03 AM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#285748: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:41:50 AM

Yes they support successful impeachment of Donald Trump,their failure would be pretty damning in their eyes

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#285749: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:41:54 AM

Who will turn on them? Independents, Low-info voters who think Dems can snap their fingers and fix America, but won't.

[up]this

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jul 25th 2019 at 11:42:35 AM

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#285750: Jul 25th 2019 at 8:42:25 AM

Is it better to try and fail or not to try at all? Which looks worse?

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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