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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285701: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:38:59 AM

[up] She isn't anti-semitic though, she is anti-israel (under Netanjahu).

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 25th 2019 at 1:39:26 PM

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#285702: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:43:40 AM

I feel like there needs to be another way of saying you despise Israel's leader without having to mention being anti Israel,since the latter leads to misunderstandings naturally

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Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#285703: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:44:23 AM

A lot of those misunderstandings are intentional: Various entities have a long history of playing the antisemitism card whenever someone criticizes Israel's occupation of Palestine.

Edited by Medinoc on Jul 25th 2019 at 1:45:31 PM

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#285704: Jul 25th 2019 at 4:45:12 AM

[up][up][up][up]Yeah, I’m going to need more then general Israel criticism to really buy into those accusations of anti-semitism against her.

[up]Its not exactly helped by the Israeli lobby in the US doing it’s best to cultivate the “Criticism of Israel equals antisemitism” view.

Edited by Mio on Jul 25th 2019 at 7:47:53 AM

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285705: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:00:26 AM

It's the typical Ben Shapiro-esque way of arguing. Always bitching about the "Liberals" just "playing the race card", even when it is about genuine racism.

But if you attack Ben himself, or Israel, or it's lobby, or Netanjahu etc, then it's always, ALWAYS anti-semitism. By default, no exceptions.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 25th 2019 at 2:00:39 PM

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GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#285706: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:13:10 AM

Ben Shapiro and other right-wing pundits like him have a sad habit of decrying identity politics, usually in reference to the identity politics of the left, all while employing identity politics themselves to suit their needs. The hypocrisy is stunning.

Also: Ilhan Omar ISN'T an anti-semite, as if that needed to be emphasised, but apparently it does.

Edited by GoldenKaos on Jul 25th 2019 at 1:14:36 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285707: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:17:22 AM

TBF, tweets like "Israel has hypnotized the world, may Allah awaken the people and help them see the evil doings of Israel" could very easily be considered anti-Semitic. To her credit, she apologized when she was called out on it.

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 8:19:09 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#285708: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:18:25 AM

Sure, but only if you hadn't heard that Israel is borderline if not outright fascistic at this point.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285709: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:19:30 AM

[up]Yeah, but that "hypnotize the world" thing is kind of straight up Protocols of the Elders of Zion bullshit.

I don't think Omar's actually anti-Semitic. But her criticisms of Israel and American policy, however legit, do sometimes unknowingly tap into anti-Semitic material.

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 8:23:57 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#285710: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:23:53 AM

You're not wrong there, it's certainly a bad look to use that specific choice of words - but on the other hand there are a LOT of pro-Israel politicians and commentators abroad who constantly push pro-Israel, for the lack of a better term, propaganda.

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285711: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:26:17 AM

Heck, take the time she said "I want to talk about the political influence in this country that says it is OK for people to push for allegiance to a foreign country."

Now, she was almost certainly talking about the influence of lobbying groups. The problem is that this edged dangerously close to the "dual loyalty" canard that is in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285712: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:27:31 AM

I think nobody is debating that Ilhan's choice of words wasn't the best.

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285713: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:29:17 AM

Oh, and the time she told Glenn Greenwald (ugh) that support for Israel was "all about the Benjamins baby"?

Yeah...that was a bit too close to the Greedy Jew stereotype.

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 8:29:53 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#285714: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:40:29 AM

The problem with the Israel lobby is that it plays on the "remember those horrible things that happened to the Jews" meme as a "Get Out of Jail Free" Card for whatever abuses and violations of human rights their government wants to undertake.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285715: Jul 25th 2019 at 5:51:56 AM

They also always engage in Whataboutism.

When people bring up their horrible treatment of Palestinians, they always go all "Well, we are still morally superior, because we have democracy and LGBT rights, as opposed to all our arabian neighbours, aren't you gonna bring up THAT?"

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285716: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:02:19 AM

Those poll numbers are troubling, we might have lost control of the narrative with regards to collusion with Russia.

"If there was any merit to the investigation, Congress would have impeached him." -Low Info Voters

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#285717: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:04:51 AM

And those same low info voters are just going to say if there was any reason to have him impeached it wouldn't have failed.

Which it will.

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285718: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:09:56 AM

I think part of the problem is that anti-Semitic tropes have become so pervasive in our culture thanks to generations upon generations of persecuting the Jewish people. So even if someone who isn't actually anti-Semitic wants to criticize Israel, they still unwittingly fall into using wording that originated in anti-Semitic propaganda.

The way I see it, if someone outright calls Rep. Omar an anti-Semite, they're full of it.

But if someone instead points out that some of her wording echoes anti-Semitic crap? That's a bit more valid criticism.

Edited by M84 on Jul 25th 2019 at 9:12:09 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285719: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:16:25 AM

[up][up]

Perhaps.

But in any case, we lost control of the Mueller narrative when the Report came out. William Barr said it exonerated Trump, the public didn't actually read it and just waited on the edge of their seat for an impeachment hearing to begin, and then nothing happened and Washington went onto business as usual.

There's no coming back from that. The battle to delegitimize Trump's Presidency is over. Trump won that fight. He is now a Totes Legit President For Realsies, and that's reflected in those poll numbers.

By continuing to hammer a point that you, I, and everyone else knows that Democrats will never take actual action on, the House is only weakening the investigations we've already made. If they won't impeach but they will drag Mueller out to try and get him to say Trump's a big ol' meanie-head in front of a camera, then in the eyes of the public, that validates Trump's claims of "Presidential Harassment".

If we won't impeach, which is the only meaningful action on the table that would get the public paying attention again, then we need to let this angle go. It's not helping us. Trump's legitimacy is no longer in question; he's a Real President now. So we need to be focusing on (and getting America to focus on) just how shitty of a Real President he is, and stop dragging the public eye back to the crimes that even we refuse to prosecute him for.

"Trump shouldn't be President" is over. "Trump is a monstrous President" needs to be the new narrative.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 25th 2019 at 7:17:33 AM

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#285720: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:24:50 AM

That we can't prosecute him for

Oh really when?
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#285721: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:28:21 AM

But you can convince voters to not reelect him for...

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285722: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:34:36 AM

Not if voters are so sick of hearing echo-chamber smears that it makes his crimes in office (like the concentration camps) sound like "more wild conspiracy theories from the Angry Democrats".

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Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285723: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:39:49 AM

Trump's base cannot be convinced otherwise. That is truly a lost cause. It's not even a base, I'd really call it a cult by now.

The only people to hope for are swing voters, or people who are normally too lazy to vote.

Edited by Forenperser on Jul 25th 2019 at 3:40:31 PM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#285724: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:55:26 AM

Summary of the Republican party's obstruction antics

DOJ: Mueller, we’d like you to answer the following equation without using the number 4:

2 + 2 =

Mueller: I can definitively state that the answer is a whole number less than 5 and more than 3.

Dems: So the answer is 4, right?

Mueller: I am unable to come to that conclusion, but I stand by my statement.

Barr: I have read Muellers work, and can conclude that he never uses the number 4. Therefore that is not the answer to that equation.

Dems: Thank you for coming in to settle this Mueller. Can you please just say that the answer is four so we can end this?

Mueller: that answer is outside the scope I was given.

Dems: if you were able to use the number 4, would 4 be the answer?

Mueller: Yes.

GOP: Mr Mueller, I’m sure you are aware that this equation is based off Arabic numerals. Can you definitively state that these symbols were not used by anyone prior to their use in Arabic math?

Mueller: um, no..

GOP: Gotcha! The credibility of the entire number system has now come into question, and has proven that the equation is a lie and a waste of time.

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285725: Jul 25th 2019 at 6:57:30 AM

Trump's base cannot be convinced otherwise. That is truly a lost cause. It's not even a base, I'd really call it a cult by now.

The only people to hope for are swing voters, or people who are normally too lazy to vote.

Yeah, that's who I'm talking about.

The low info voters who've been reading headlines about how shitty Trump is for two and a half years, voted for Democrats to make Trump go away, and then just kept reading more headlines about how Trump's a big ol' asshole while the impeachment proceeding they voted for never came.

People who hear a little bit of legit news and a little bit of FOX News and are trying to figure out what's true between the two. Y'know, since FOX is a legitimate news source so it can't all be lies and bluster, right?

We don't need to convince deep-blue Dems of anything. And what we're doing right now, continuing to ask "WHY IS NOBODY DOING ANYTHING?" when we're the ones with the button that starts the process of doing something, is not a very compelling argument.

Right now, Trump is still in office because Democrats won't impeach. Not because Republicans won't convict. The ball's in our court and we're sitting on it. For a valid reason, mind, even if I disagree with it - but if we aren't going to do anything with it, we should stop drawing people's attention to the fact that we're sitting on it.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 25th 2019 at 8:03:07 AM

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