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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#285676: Jul 24th 2019 at 5:30:48 PM

Yeah. Mueller didn't "lose" anything there because it isn't his job to arrest Trump - who is beyond prosecution even if he's seen shooting an American citizen in person on live TV. The idea that he personally could be Mueller Time'd is, as has been said, a myth.

What I think the House can legally do is threaten Trump's 2020 campaign in cooperation with the New York DA's office. There's nothing illegal about having campaign staffers arrested, and forcing Trump to run a perfectly squeaky-clean campaign or find himself without the staff to manage it is completely honorable.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285677: Jul 24th 2019 at 5:51:10 PM

Also charging someone with something is easy, you can Indict a Ham Sandwich. Proving criminal wrongdoing is a very different matter. Especially for someone who has managed to evade justice as long as Trump (Even before his presidency). You re trying to not just take down a former president, you are also trying to take down someone who has been called one of the wealthiest men in the world. He might not be the hardest person in the world to take down legally, but toughest person in America? I'd like to know who else would have more resources both financial and political to fight back with.

Edited by Soban on Jul 24th 2019 at 8:53:51 AM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#285678: Jul 24th 2019 at 6:41:01 PM

My wish is that the overall meh-ness of this testimony and subsequent hearing will convince people that an impeachment hearing would likely proceed in a similar fashion and not be some big turning point like its advocates think it will, but that's probably hoping against hope.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#285679: Jul 24th 2019 at 6:47:03 PM

Far be it me to defend the Democrats that I have only respect for eight or nine of but this wasn't a bad things.

These hearings exist only to keep Trump's crimes in the news cycle, not to actually change anything.

As long as Mueller and his report are in the news them is reacting than acting.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#285680: Jul 24th 2019 at 6:54:58 PM

[up]...so, in other words, the hearings are damn near pointless.

Like, what did we learn from this that we didn't already know? Anything that could've been brought to a more general public was basically obscured it Mueller's equivalent of "just google it".

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jul 24th 2019 at 9:56:09 AM

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285681: Jul 24th 2019 at 7:02:08 PM

One wonders if this was one of the reasons Pelosi hasn't been too keen on impeachment. Maybe she had a more realistic expectation of what the report would hold than most.

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#285682: Jul 24th 2019 at 7:02:45 PM

I wouldn't be surprised.

i'm tired, my friend
Imca (Veteran)
#285683: Jul 24th 2019 at 7:08:28 PM

I mean she has had her job since 1987... you don't keep a job in politics that long unless you know what your doing.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#285684: Jul 24th 2019 at 7:56:42 PM

Yeah, while it may seem like Pelosi is faffing about sometimes (and I understand being annoyed with her seeming inaction), she's more shrewd than she gets credit for.

Do not obey in advance.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#285685: Jul 24th 2019 at 8:26:50 PM

I think Pelosi is badly out of touch with circumstances and has poorly handled the backlash from beginning to end.

If she's not going to pursue impeachment, it's her job to say why and justify it.

Basically, if she was "shrewd" she wouldn't be looking so poor in the media when her whole plan is apparently "don't look poor in the media."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 24th 2019 at 8:27:23 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#285686: Jul 24th 2019 at 8:31:21 PM

Yeah. Mueller didn't "lose" anything there because it isn't his job to arrest Trump - who is beyond prosecution even if he's seen shooting an American citizen in person on live TV. The idea that he personally could be Mueller Time'd is, as has been said, a myth.

Right, but the article isn't arguing that he lost because he didn't personally arrest Trump.

The argument goes that he's one of the losers because he gave a muddled and ineffectual testimony that entirely failed to 1) address the Republican conspiracy theories and 2) properly explain to the general public the content of the report.

To quote the article:

Mueller testified before both the House Judiciary Committee and the Permanent Subcommittee on Intelligence, saying very little of substance beyond what was already contained in the text of his report. He responded to questions with monosyllables or requests for clarification. According to a count by NBC, Mueller “deflected or declined to answer questions 198 times” during the two three-hour hearings.

So yeah, that's why he lost. Not because he didn't magically end Trump's administration but because he entirely failed to sell the report to the American public.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 24th 2019 at 8:32:38 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285687: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:22:36 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/07/24/day-916/

    Day 916: "A very innocent President." 
Mueller testified before the House Judiciary and Intelligence Committees in seven hours of back-to-back hearings about his report on the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election and possible obstruction of justice by Trump. Mueller agreed that Trump's conduct was problematic, that the investigation did not exonerate Trump, and that Trump did not cooperate fully with the investigation. Mueller did not to go beyond the findings in his 448-page final report and declined repeatedly to offer his opinion on questions or even to read directly from the document.

👉 Start here for in-depth articles recapping Mueller's back-to-back testimony today. (New York Times / Washington Post / Bloomberg / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/24/politics/mueller-testimony-before-congress/index.html

🔥 "What we learned"-style Recaps: New York Times / Axios / USA Today

👩‍💻 Live Blogs: New York Times / Washington Post / The Guardian / Bloomberg / Wall Street Journal / CBS News / CNN / NBC News

🤔 Analysis: New York Times / Politico

1/ Mueller: Trump "was not exculpated for the acts that he allegedly committed," adding that Trump could potentially be indicted after he leaves office. House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler asked Mueller if Trump was "correct" that the report "found that there was no obstruction and that it completely and totally exonerated him." Mueller replied: "That is not what the report said." Mueller confirmed that Trump had engaged in 10 instances of obstruction of justice, which Attorney General William Barr decided not to file charges for. Mueller also confirmed that Trump refused to sit for an interview. [Editor's note: I had to look up what "exculpated" means, because I'm not a lawyer. You're probably not a lawyer either, so here's what it means: to "show or declare that (someone) is not guilty of wrongdoing." Curiouser and curiouser…] (The Guardian / NBC News / CBS News / Daily Beast / Axios / CNBC)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/robert-mueller-testimony-congress-n1033156

2/ During his House Intelligence Committee testimony, Mueller initially suggested he didn't indict Trump because of a Justice Department policy. Mueller later clarified that because the policy prohibits the indictment of a sitting president, he "did not reach a determination as to whether the president committed a crime." Mueller's response, however, contradicted Barr's claim that the OLC guidelines played no part in Mueller's approach. Mueller also refuted Trump's claim that the report proved "no collusion," saying: "We did not address 'collusion,' which is not a legal term." (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/24/robert-mueller-testimony-1428423

3/ Mueller condemned Trump's tweets about Wiki Leaks' stolen emails during the 2016 campaign, calling it "problematic" and "an understatement." Mueller, who earlier said Russia had launched a "sweeping and systematic" attack on American democracy, called Trump Jr.'s Twitter exchange with Wiki Leaks "disturbing" and that they were subject to investigation. Meanwhile, House Intelligence Chairman Adam Schiff asked Mueller: "Your investigation is not a witch hunt, is it?" Mueller responded: "It is not a witch hunt." Rep. Jackie Spierer asked Mueller if Russia helping Trump was a hoax. Mueller replied: "It was not a hoax." (CNN / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/robert-mueller-testimony-congress-n1033156

4/ Mueller declined, deflected, or deferred nearly 200 questions, speaking only about what his report said regarding Trump, Russian interference, or obstruction of justice. Some of his responses: "I'm not going to speak to that," "I'm not going to get into that," "I can't get into that," "I can't say," "outside my purview," "I'm not certain I agree with your characterization," "I don't subscribe necessarily to the way you analyze it," and "I'm not going to discuss that." Mueller also referred lawmakers to his report at least 40 times. (NBC News / CNN / ABC News / Washington Post)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/robert-mueller-house-testimony-tracker-july-2019-n1033166

5/ Before Mueller's testimony began, Trump accused Democrats of trying to "illegally fabricate a crime" and pin it on a "very innocent President," calling Mueller's investigation "an illegal and treasonous attack on our Country," questioning Mueller's impartiality and calling him "an Embarrassment to our Country!," adding "NO COLLUSION, NO OBSTRUCTION!" Throughout the hearing, Trump tweeted quotes from Fox News and his supporters, despite claiming earlier this week that he wouldn't watch Mueller's testimony. Trump also complained about a request by Mueller to have his aide, Aaron Zebley, testify with him as a witness before the House Judiciary and Intelligence committees, declaring that "This was specifically NOT agreed to, and I would NEVER have agreed to it." The Judiciary Committee denied the request, but allowed Zebley to appear with Mueller if the former special counsel require assistance during the hearings. (New York Times / NBC News / Mother Jones / Politico)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/trump-ahead-special-counsel-testimony-why-didn-t-mueller-investigate-n1033301

6/ Trump, meanwhile, claimed that Article II of the Constitution gives him "the right to do whatever I want as president." Article II grants the president "executive power." The comment came while addressing a crowd of teenagers and young adults at the Turning Point USA Teen Student Action Summit in Washington. Last month, Trump cited Article 2 as the reason why presidents can't be charged with obstruction of justice. Trump also bemoaned the duration and cost of Mueller's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election. (Washington Post / Talking Points Memo)

https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/trump-claim-article-2-right-whatever-want-president

poll/ 37% of voters say they believe Mueller’s investigation was carried out very or somewhat fairly, compared with 42% who say the probe was conducted "not too fairly" or "not fairly at all." (Politico / Morning Consult)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/24/poll-democrats-russia-investigation-1428353

    Notables. 
House Democrats are prepared to pass a measure intended to improve their case for access to Trump's financial information. The proposal would declare that any committee subpoenas related to Trump, his family, current and former White House officials and the Trump Organization are presumed to have the approval of the full House of Representatives. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/23/house-endorse-trump-subpoenas-1428175

A former business partner of Michael Flynn was convicted on a pair of foreign-agent felony charges related to work the two men did for Turkish interests during Trump's presidential campaign. Bijan Rafiekian faces up to 15 years in prison for acting as an unregistered foreign agent in the U.S., and conspiracy to violate that law as well as to submit false statements to the Justice Department in a foreign-agent filing. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/23/trump-adviser-bijan-rafiekian-convicted-1428176

The Justice Department will not bring criminal charges against Attorney General William Barr and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross following the House vote to hold them in contempt. The Justice Department was never expected to prosecute its own leader and another cabinet official. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/24/justice-william-barr-wilbur-ross-1432595

The House Oversight and Reform Committee scheduled a vote to hold Kellyanne Conway in contempt of Congress after she failed to comply with a subpoena to testify about her repeated Hatch Act violations. The panel will vote on Thursday. (The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/454211-house-oversight-schedules-thursday-vote-to-hold-kellyanne-conway-in-contempt

The Freedom Caucus formally urged Trump to reject the bipartisan spending deal and agreement to raise the debt ceiling. The conservative group cited concerns about the impact the deal will have on the national debt as the main reason for their opposition. "Our country is undeniably headed down a path of fiscal insolvency and rapidly approaching $23 trillion in debt," the group said in a statement. "All sides should go back to the drawing board and work around the clock, canceling recess if necessary, on a responsible budget agreement that serves American taxpayers better—not a $323 billion spending frenzy with no serious offsets." (The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/house/454439-freedom-caucus-formally-opposes-trumps-budget-deal

The EPA will allow the expanded use of a pesticide it considers to be toxic to bees. The announcement comes after the Trump Administration said it was suspending data collection on bee populations. (KSHB)

https://www.kshb.com/news/local-news/epa-announces-expanded-use-of-pesticide-believed-to-be-toxic-to-bees

Afghanistan asked the United States to clarify Trump's claim that he would "wipe [Afghanistan] off the face of the Earth" if he wanted to win the war in the country. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/23/politics/afghanistan-pushback-trump-comments/index.html

North Korea launched two unidentifiable objects that traveled 267 miles into the Sea of Japan, according to South Korea. U.S. officials confirmed that North Korea had launched at least one projectile, describing it as a short range missile. (ABC News)

https://abcnews.go.com/International/north-korea-launches-unidentifiable-objects/story?id=64549551

Trump vetoed Congress's attempt to block arms sales to Saudi Arabia, worth more than $8 billion. Earlier this month, bipartisan majorities in the House and Senate voted to block the arms deals in an effort to punish the kingdom over weapons being used against civilians in Yemen's civil war and the killing of the journalist Jamal Khashoggi. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2019/07/24/trump-vetoes-congresss-attempt-to-block-arms-sales-to-saudi-arabia-thwarting-effort-to-punish-kingdom-over-yemen-khashoggi/

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#285688: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:26:40 PM

poll/ 37% of voters say they believe Mueller’s investigation was carried out very or somewhat fairly, compared with 42% who say the probe was conducted "not too fairly" or "not fairly at all."

Those poll numbers are troubling, we might have lost control of the narrative with regards to collusion with Russia.

Oh really when?
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#285689: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:28:07 PM

[up]x2 If the Freedom Caucus truly cared about the Debt and Defecits (Hint hint, they don't), they wouldn't have helped pass those Tax Cuts in 2017. Since Trump will have no appetite to endanger the Republicans up for Election next year (including himself), he probably won't listen to the Freedom Caucus. If he does, and blocks or vetoes the Budget he and the Democrats agreed to, it's going to hurt our Economy and we might actually end up in a Recession because of it.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Jul 24th 2019 at 12:28:19 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#285690: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:34:22 PM

If she's not going to pursue impeachment, it's her job to say why and justify it.

  1. Not really, no.
  2. Even if she did explain why, she'd still get backlash anyway, regardless of her explanation. She'd still be called a coward, she'd most assuredly be called a liar by some. What would this accomplish again?

Also, it's kinda hard not to look bad in the media when the media is predisposed to try and make you look bad whenever possible.

There is absolutely nothing Pelosi can do that will satisfy her critics short of just biting the bullet and proceeding with impeachment. And they'll be right back to shitting on her after it turns out to be an overhyped few hours of nothing happening. The woman simply cannot win.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285691: Jul 24th 2019 at 9:39:01 PM

Part of her continued success despite it all is that she's able to roll with the punches and accepts that there's always someone who will shit on her. Whether it's reactionaries spinning conspiracy theories about her as some kind of evil tyrant, leftwingers decrying her as...also an evil tyrant, centrists angry that she isn't actually an evil tyrant who can reign in "The Squad" (ugh what a pretentious nickname)...

Disgusted, but not surprised
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Imca (Veteran)
#285693: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:00:47 PM

Those poll numbers are troubling, we might have lost control of the narrative with regards to collusion with Russia.

That assumes we were ever in control if it, we weren't.... People either saw it as a silver bullet, or a witch hunt from the beginning when the reality is it was neither.

The former is just as dangerous as the later, since it sets up unrealistic expectations, yet every one allowed it to spread unchecked.

Edited by Imca on Jul 24th 2019 at 10:01:28 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#285694: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:03:09 PM

It's not Mueller's job to sell it to the public. It was to sell it to the Congress. I watched the report and it's clear that while he's exhausted, he's seemingly more confused by what people want out of him.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#285695: Jul 24th 2019 at 10:24:34 PM

[up]x4 As far as I can tell, it started as a phrase online that ended up almost by accident becoming the collective nickname for the for congresspeople.

[up][up][up] Freaking FINALLY. Looks like even he could not resist overwhelming public opinion.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Jul 24th 2019 at 1:27:18 PM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#285696: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:17:30 PM

Nicknaming the four congresswomen "The Squad" reeks of some sort of fear of young people and slang. Which, considering the kinds of people slandering them...

Do not obey in advance.
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#285697: Jul 24th 2019 at 11:55:34 PM

Speaking of which, does Ilhan Omar really only have an approval rating of 9% or was that more fake/out-of-context news by Republicans?

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#285699: Jul 25th 2019 at 1:27:40 AM

[up][up]She has a 9% approval rating among Republicans. smile

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#285700: Jul 25th 2019 at 2:40:31 AM

[up][up] She's certainly the most controversial of the four. And the only one I personally want to see getting a decent primary challenger, because anti-semitism has no place in progressive or socialist politics.

Life is unfair...

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