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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#285551: Jul 22nd 2019 at 8:05:43 PM

I wonder if yet another reason why the Rs are acting so brazen and extreme is because of the dismal senate projections for 2020 and 2022. Basically, Torch the Franchise and Run, but for politics.

I feel like they don't have that kind of self-awareness. For the most part, anyway.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:06:51 AM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285552: Jul 22nd 2019 at 8:09:16 PM

My theory is that if this was a prisoner's dilemma, their defecting. Most republicans I know believe that democrats 'defected' first.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#285553: Jul 22nd 2019 at 8:12:14 PM

If you can't beat them, their probably not going to give you the chance to eat them either.

Not with that attitude.

warrior93 warrior93 from North Carolina Since: Feb, 2011
warrior93
#285554: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:35:54 PM

So it likely that Trump will win 2020?

Place your past in a book burn the pages let them cook.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#285555: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:39:21 PM

He's barely won 2016 by a perfect storm and a fluke. No way would I describe him winning 2020 "likely", unless you're talking about him winning the Republican primary.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285556: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:40:10 PM

I think it might be too early to tell, but at the moment my money is on Trump. None of the Democrats excite me and make me want to vote democrat. There is potential, but only if the Democrats present a united front. I think the biggest thing that they have going against them is their broad labeling of everyone who voted for or likes Trump as being irredeemably evil. It's cutting of their nose to spite your face and it's going to cost them.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#285557: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:41:14 PM

Him winning is certainly possible, but likely? It wasn't likely the first time, and things are probably to be worse for him this time for a variety of reasons. But we won't actually know until the time comes.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285558: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:41:38 PM

[up][up]The idea of a second term of Trump alone isn't enough to make you vote Democrat? Because that's the alternative, regardless of who becomes the Democratic candidate.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:42:56 AM

Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
#285559: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:42:36 PM

Here is the link to RealClearPolitics' general election poll data. Haven't looked at it myself but it'd be good to put numbers to the ideas.

Edited by Aleistar on Jul 22nd 2019 at 12:43:58 PM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#285560: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:44:18 PM

Most likely gonna vote Democrat, as long as the person they send is reasonably moderate.

Leviticus 19:34
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285561: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:45:20 PM

[up] I repeat my question [up][up][up].

Granted, in your case, if I'm remembering correctly, you're a Republican (?), but does it actually matter how moderate or not the Democratic candidate is, given the alternative is a proven buffoon who regularly demonstrates he's unfit for the job? note 

I hate "Their side bad!" politics, and have said so repeatedly, but that's where we are right now, whether I like it or not. I can not fathom anything that would justify not actively voting against Trump.

[down] I repeat my last sentence before this one.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:50:20 AM

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285562: Jul 22nd 2019 at 9:49:13 PM

I left the republican Party because of Trump. When I said I studied Trump, it also meant that I was against him from pretty much day one. I am a libertarian. I'm planning to vote Libertarian currently. People say that I both sides things, it's because I really do think that both sides suck. I've already resigned myself to never winning an election again. There are some pretty hard nos on the Democrat side of things, some of the more important of which can't be discussed here.

>I hate "Their side bad!" politics, and have said so repeatedly, but that's where we are right now, whether I like it or not. I can not fathom anything that would justify not actively voting against Trump.

To a degree, I agree with you. Part of the reason I'm planning to vote the way I am is because I'm voting for something rather then against something. Also, I am voting against Trump. I'm just not also voting for something I really don't agree with.

Edited by Soban on Jul 22nd 2019 at 12:54:52 PM

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#285563: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:04:35 PM

[up] The biggest problem with that sort of thinking is that you end up causing what you didn't want to happen happen because you didn't just hold your nose and vote for the person who had the greatest chance of beating Trump. Your sort of thinking is one of the many reasons Trump won 2016.

Weren't there enough non-Clinton, non-Trump voters who voted for a third-party (either joke or otherwise) who could have turned multiple states?

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285564: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:09:14 PM

For the same reasons stated [up], it's less "voting against Trump" and more abstention, in my own view.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#285565: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:14:21 PM

@sgamer82 I'm a Conservative and technically am a Republican. I should note "reasonably moderate" primarily means things like "thinks vaccines are good" and "isn't a single issue wonk socialist who ignores all other issues such as racism or sexism".

Leviticus 19:34
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#285566: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:16:34 PM

Here is the link to Real Clear Politics' general election poll data. Haven't looked at it myself but it'd be good to put numbers to the ideas.

Most of the polls have Sanders and Biden winning vs Trump by the most comfortable margins.

Also, while I would never count chickens before they hatch, unless the voter suppression/russian interference is ridiculously effective (or some other unforeseen thing happens), I think Donald's chances are not that great.

Before the election, Donald at least had the "benefit of the doubt" (well, he didn't, but a lot of people thought he did) because he had no record as a politician for people to compare to. But now he does, and his only benefit is that the economy hasn't tanked under his watch yet, something that has been speculated might happen yet before 2020. Otherwise he isn't exactly very popular.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#285567: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:16:55 PM

Your argument seems to be that I should vote against my least preferred option. However, 'their side bad' politics isn't what we want to be doing. So what should we do instead? Obviously, it's 'our side good politics. Looking at it through that lens, the Libertarians are the one that I like the most.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285568: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:17:31 PM

That seems less moderate and more common sense to me, being honest.

I've come to Warren personally because she send to easily be the most competent of the bunch right now.

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#285569: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:17:52 PM

[up][up][up][up]Let's say for a moment that it's Bernie v Trump. Are you honestly saying that having someone that "ignores all other issues such as racism or sexism" would be no better than someone that is both actually racist and sexist?

Even if you dislike Bernie, you can't say that those scales balance.

Edited by TheRoguePenguin on Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:18:17 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285570: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:20:22 PM

I haven't really come around to any candidate, but I can't think of any Democratic candidate now who'd be as bad as or worse than what we have now. Except maybe that anti-vaxxer.

Edited by M84 on Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:23:01 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#285571: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:27:25 PM

On the polling data, I think it's important to remember that Trump consistently polls lower than he should. People are embarrassed to admit they support him, but will vote for him when it's private

And comparison to 2016 is pointless since being the incumbent is a massive advantage

Do not get complacent

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285572: Jul 22nd 2019 at 10:45:00 PM

[up]There are no shy Trump voters, says pollster

The "shy Trump voter" thing was just one of the things people came up with to try to make sense of how Trump won even though polls supposedly confirmed he had no chance.

When in truth it was just a matter of margins of error and most people being kind of shit at actually understanding what polls are telling us.

Edited by M84 on Jul 23rd 2019 at 1:46:17 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#285573: Jul 22nd 2019 at 11:03:16 PM

That and voters who had a negative opinion of both Hillary and Trump ended up going pretty overwhelmingly for Trump at the last second due to Comey.

Clinton won nationally by pretty much exactly what the polls said she’d win by, but she lost in certain states due to a big segment of “they both suck” voters deciding to vote for Trump.

As for the third party argument, I can see the logic of voting third party if one honestly believes that they are the better option, in the end change has to be built up from somewhere. I just don’t see how the US Greens or the Libertarian Party are the better option compared to the democrats, what positives do they have to offer that Dems don’t? Because reflexive third party voting is just a version of “their side bad” with a plural stuck on the end.

Edited by Silasw on Jul 22nd 2019 at 6:03:44 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#285574: Jul 22nd 2019 at 11:10:00 PM

I've spent more time than I wished looking at the Lolbertarian Party and the Greenies to know that I don't want these people running a friggin' 7-11 cash register, let alone the WH.

Edited by M84 on Jul 23rd 2019 at 2:11:15 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#285575: Jul 22nd 2019 at 11:29:48 PM

Why Trump keeps Bolton

President Trump made small talk with the Irish prime minister as they sat in the Oval Office in mid-March, accompanied by a handful of senior American and Irish officials. Trump, who wore a green tie and filled his jacket pocket with a clump of shamrock to honor the Irish leader's annual St. Patrick's Day visit, turned with a half-smile to his hawkish national security adviser John Bolton, according to two sources who were in the room.

"John," Trump asked, "Is Ireland one of those countries you want to invade?"

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele

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