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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#285151: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:43:07 PM

[up][up]What An Idiot probably suffices.

i'm tired, my friend
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285152: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:50:51 PM

It goes back to 'business aren't people' so you can't jail and fine every single person like they're all the same guy

Legally, corporations are people.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#285153: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:53:40 PM

I guess dissolving the corporation entirely would be more akin to the death penalty. It should be more like "everyone in the company responsible for that person's death should be arrested and charged to the fullest extent of the law".

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 17th 2019 at 1:54:22 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285154: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:57:41 PM

That seems extreme. A lot of people in a business are just working day to day to make a living.

It'd be completely unfeasible to investigate every ill effect that every possible product on the market is having every second of the day. If one dude stabs another dude with a Ginsu knife (It can cut through a shoe!), do you go after Ginsu?

But with an epidemic like this, I would want to see decision-makers gone after. That means senior leadership, not the guy who puts the pills into the bottle at the warehouse.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jul 17th 2019 at 2:59:33 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#285155: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:59:00 PM

Aye,punish the ones at the board meetings who give themselves bonuses and not the ones at the bottom

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285156: Jul 17th 2019 at 1:59:39 PM

Dissolving the entire company, meanwhile, feels like it'd cause more harm than good. Pharmaceutical companies make a lot of life-saving medications in addition to their horrible opiates. Meanwhile, putting thousands of people out of work is a great way to ruin lives.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#285157: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:01:00 PM

I was talking more like that woman who died in an Amazon warehouse because she was overworked and wasn't allowed any breaks. Everyone responsible for that, and everyone responsible for the rules that directly led to that, should have been arrested and charged with criminal negligence and manslaughter.

Not, like, someone deliberately uses a product made by the company to kill someone else, obviously the company has nothing to do with that.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#285158: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:05:49 PM

There have been attempts to hold corporate executives and employees liable for direct and intentional (or negligent) harm. The problem is proving responsibility. This is harder than it sounds. We can bandy about "shoulds" and "oughts" all day long, but in practice you have to put in legal structures to facilitate direct criminal prosecutions in these situations.

Such a concept runs afoul of one of the basic principles on which corporations are founded: shielding employees and officers from direct liability. What you call a bug is a deliberate feature.

Edited by Fighteer on Jul 17th 2019 at 5:07:50 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#285159: Jul 17th 2019 at 2:56:34 PM

Remember: corporate crime can kill thousands with no one arrested, while $100 of weed can get you locked away for years.

This is exactly why I consider White collar crimes to be significantly more immoral than their Blue Collar counterparts.

Blue-collar criminals are the product of the scarcity which arises from society failing to rationally allocate resources and thus are, to a very real extent, victims as well.

White-collar criminals, other the other hand, have no excuse. They're just parasites that harm society and its members just to benefit their own selfish desires, they're the lowest of the low.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 17th 2019 at 3:01:32 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#285160: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:06:26 PM

The responsibility thing is an issue because you have to actually ask who's all at fault-especially since sometimes corporations hurt people because their employees don't follow corporate policy.

For example, let's say a person runs a company like Amazon and has a rule against overworking employees. One of their middle managers breaks said rule and gets another employee killed. At worst, they can be considered responsible for "not enforcing the rule" or "not screening their middle managers well enough" (which actually can be bad themselves). This also gets murkier as a corporation scales up. A sufficiently big company wouldn't have a way to make sure everything going on within it is ethical even by their standards.

[up]I have to disagree with half of that. There's a notion that poverty causes people to become criminals, but I'd argue the vast majority of people claiming to have become criminals out of desperation are lying. My evidence for this actually would be White-Collar Crime: People are quite willing to be criminals when they're wealthy.

Leviticus 19:34
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#285161: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:10:46 PM

House votes to table Green's (D-TX) impeachment resolution 332-95-1, all Republicans plus Amash (I-MI) voted to table, DeFazio (D-OR) voted present, 95 Democrats supported measure.

Edited by tclittle on Jul 17th 2019 at 5:11:39 AM

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#285162: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:12:24 PM

Second debate line up for August has been shown to be everybody from the first debate, minus Swalwell and adding the governor of Montana.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#285163: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:27:15 PM

The third debate, which actually has meaningful requirements to be on stage, should be better.

CNN is reporting that the House is voting to hold Barr and Wilbur Ross in Criminal Contempt over their refusal to testify on the Census amendments.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Jul 17th 2019 at 7:28:00 AM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#285164: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:33:33 PM

I have to disagree with half of that. There's a notion that poverty causes people to become criminals, but I'd argue the vast majority of people claiming to have become criminals out of desperation are lying. My evidence for this actually would be White-Collar Crime: People are quite willing to be criminals when they're wealthy.

One crime is not equal to another. Someone doesn't stick up a gas station when they're reasonably wealthy. Meanwhile, the poor and desperate do not have access to the tools required to embezzle millions of dollars from a corporation.

And nobody's ever committed a rape 'cause they were hungry.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#285165: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:35:01 PM

The second debate is going to draw based on three tiers. The top four, the middle six, and then the rest. Half of each tier will be on each night.

I’m crossing my fingers for Warren versus Biden and Harris v. Sanders; I don’t want both women on one night or both progressives on one night.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#285166: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:36:15 PM

The only time rich people commit Blue Collar Crime is when they're being irresponsible and they think they're rich enough to get away with it (unfortunately, they tend to be right).

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#285167: Jul 17th 2019 at 3:54:13 PM

With that white-collar crime comparison, there are people who've embezzled funds in order to cover other debts, so... yeah. There's 100% selfish reasons for crime, there's mixed bags (see the previous), there's 100% desperate reasons to commit a crime, and then there's 100% "I don't even know" reasons for it, though that last one tends to be the minority.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#285168: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:14:52 PM

I think someone said it best that the desperation of a crime depends greatly on what exactly is the law being broken.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 17th 2019 at 4:26:33 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#285169: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:23:16 PM

[up]I think you mean "law" being broken.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#285170: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:23:50 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/07/17/day-909/

    Day 909: "Not unhappy." 
1/ The House voted to hold Attorney General William Barr and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross in criminal contempt of Congress for failing to provide documents about the Trump administration's efforts to add a question on citizenship to the 2020 census. Barr and Ross withheld documents that had been subpoenaed by the Oversight and Reform Committee as part of its probe into the origins of the citizenship question. The Trump administration claimed it needed the citizen question to enforce the Voting Rights Act. In May, however, evidence emerged that the question was intended to specifically give an electoral advantage to Republicans and whites. Ross also previously testified before Congress that he added the question "solely" at the request of the Justice Department. It later came out that he'd asked the department to make the request. While Barr and Ross face up to a year behind bars and a $100,000 fine, it's unlikely the Justice Department will pursue the case, because Barr is the head of the Justice Department. (Washington Post / New York Times / NBC News / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-vote-criminal-contempt-against-attorney-general-barr-commerce-secretary-n1030901

2/ The House voted to table a resolution to impeach Trump, put forth by Rep. Al Green, who used a procedural mechanism that required action within two days. Green previously forced two votes on advancing articles of impeachment against Trump in 2017 and 2018, when Republicans controlled the House. (NBC News / Politico / Washington Post / Wall Street Journal)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/house-vote-impeachment-resolution-against-trump-n1030791

READ: The full text of the House impeachment resolution against Trump. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/unfit-be-president-full-text-house-impeachment-resolution-trump-n1030611

3/ Former Ecuadoran President Rafael Correa said his country was aware that Wiki Leaks cofounder Julian Assange was interfering in the 2016 presidential election from inside Ecuador's embassy in London. "Wiki Leaks' justification was that they were providing truthful information. Sure, but (it) was just about Hillary Clinton. Not about Trump. So, they were not saying all the truth. And not saying all the truth is called manipulation." Surveillance reports describe how Assange transformed the embassy into a command center to release a series of damaging disclosures intended to undermine Hillary Clinton during the 2016 presidential election. The reports describe how Assange met with Russians and hackers, as well as computer hardware to facilitate data transfers from Russian operatives. "We did notice that he was interfering in the elections," Correa said, "and we do not allow that because we have principles, very clear values, as we would not like anyone to interfere in our elections." (CNN / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/15/politics/assange-embassy-exclusive-documents/index.html

4/ A November 1992 tape shows Trump and Jeffrey Epstein at Mar-a-Lago laughing, pointing, and discussing young women dancing at a party. Trump is seen gesturing to a woman and appears to say to Epstein, "Look at her, back there. … She's hot." Epstein smiled and nodded. The party took place the same year that Trump a private party with Epstein and more than two dozen "calendar girls," who were flown in to provide them with entertainment. (New York Times / NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/tape-shows-donald-trump-jeffrey-epstein-discussing-women-1992-party-n1030686

📌 Day 902: Trump and Epstein were once the only attendees at a party with roughly two dozen women at Mar-a-Lago. 28 women were flown in for a "calendar girl" competition that was organized at Trump's request. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/09/us/politics/trump-epstein.html

📌 Day 901: In 2002, Trump told New York Magazine that Epstein was "a terrific guy," who "likes beautiful women as much as I do, and many of them are on the younger side." Today, however, Trump told reporters that the two "had a falling out" about 15 years ago and that he "was not a fan of his, that I can tell you." (Washington Post / Associated Press / Miami Herald / CNN / Washington Post)

https://apnews.com/10108839f8ad4aa2a9f8ae0fd71fcbb4

5/ Trump said he's "not unhappy" with the reaction to his racist comments that four congresswomen of color should "go back" where "they came" from. "The only thing they have, that they can do is, now, play the race card," Trump said. "Which they've always done." Yesterday, the House voted on a resolution condemning Trump's rhetoric as "racist comments that have legitimized increased fear and hatred of new Americans and people of color." (Daily Mail)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/07/17/trump-tweets-poll-unamerican-offensive-partisan-divide/1748737001/

poll/ 59% of Americans called Trump's tweets targeting the four congresswomen "un-American," with 68% calling Trump's tweets offensive. 57% of Republicans, however, said they agreed with Trump's tweet that the congresswomen should to go back to their "original" countries. (USA Today)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-poll-idUSKCN1UB2UD

poll/ Support for Trump among Republicans rose by five percentage points following Trump's racist tweets and comments that the four congresswomen of color should "go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came." Trump's approval rating among Republicans now stands at 72%. (Reuters)

poll/ 51% of voters supported the deportation raids by Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, compared with 35% of voters who oppose those efforts. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/17/ice-deportation-raids-1417799

    Notables 
Rand Paul blocked an attempt to pass an extension of the September 11th Victim Compensation Fund. Paul objected to Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand's attempt tried to bring the House-passed bill to a vote, pointing to the growing debt and arguing that any new spending should be offset by cuts to other spending. The Senate, however, is still expected to pass the bill before leaving for their summer recess on August 2nd. (The Hill)

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/453519-rand-paul-blocks-senate-vote-on-9-11-victim-compensation-fund

The White House Office of Management and Budget projected that the federal deficit would surpass $1 trillion this year. It's the first time the U.S. deficit has exceeded the $1 trillion level since the 4-year period following the Great Recession. (Axios)

https://www.axios.com/white-house-projects-1-trillion-deficit-for-2019-ee45c1b0-44d3-4c94-9f02-442e8fcf61dc.html

Federal prosecutors in New York ended their investigation into the Trump Organization's role in hush money payments made to protect Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign. A federal judge ordered prosecutors to release additional information connected to their related probe of Michael Cohen. Last August, Cohen admitted to making the illegal payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen Mc Dougal, at Trump's behest to silence them ahead of the election. (CNN / Politico / NBC News)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/17/trump-hush-money-payments-probe-over-1418074

Rand Paul asked Trump to be the administration's chief diplomatic emissary to Iran. Trump approved of Paul sitting down with Iranian Foreign Minister Javad Zarif in an attempt to restart negotiations with Iran. Some administration officials are concerned that Paul's intervention threatens to undermine Trump's "maximum pressure" campaign against Tehran. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/07/17/rand-paul-iran-talks-donald-trump-1418075

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#285171: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:28:41 PM

With that white-collar crime comparison, there are people who've embezzled funds in order to cover other debts, so... yeah. There's 100% selfish reasons for crime, there's mixed bags (see the previous), there's 100% desperate reasons to commit a crime, and then there's 100% "I don't even know" reasons for it, though that last one tends to be the minority.

Well, when talking about entire categories of crime it's pretty much impossible to avoid generalizations.

So while it's true that there are sympathetic white-color crimes and unsympathetic blue-collar crimes that doesn't mean they're the norm, so overall I feel confident enough to say that the average blue-collar criminal is more likely to have sympathetic reasons for their anti-social behavior than the average white-collar criminal.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#285172: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:29:46 PM

@Wisewillow; that's an interesting setup, though I question why the top tier don't go all at once. 4 isn't too many, and (as you said) the wrong setup could lead to a night of people agreeing with each other and not having a shot at the people with different views, etc.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#285173: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:52:17 PM

poll/ Support for Trump among Republicans rose by five percentage points following Trump's racist tweets and comments that the four congresswomen of color should "go back and help fix the totally broken and crime infested places from which they came." Trump's approval rating among Republicans now stands at 72%. (Reuters)

My immediate question upon reading this is to ask whether this is a genuine case of support among Republicans rising, or whether more Republicans decided to stop identifying as Republican in the aftermath of the tweets, thus concentrating the pool of Republican pool of supporters Trump is left with?

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#285174: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:57:45 PM

There’s less Republicans. These polls are skewed and the reporting on them failing to include context is irresponsible.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#285175: Jul 17th 2019 at 4:59:34 PM

[up]x2 All I know is that from the same poll, his overall Popularity went down 1%, to 41% Approval.

Edited by DingoWalley1 on Jul 17th 2019 at 7:59:49 AM


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