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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#284976: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:30:47 PM

Legitimacy doesn't always need hard power backing it up though, just soft power. The Pope, for instance, doesn't have really any army divisions or warships at his beck and call, but he does have legitimacy in the eyes of many.

A state may derive its power through force, but that doesn't mean it can't use soft power to make sure that hard power isn't needed as often, or to make its use of violence acceptable.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#284977: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:36:22 PM

[up] If you commit a crime in the Vatican the Swiss Guards will drag you away.

Though I’ll add that there’s a distinction between internal and external force. All states have a security apparatus, but not all states have a military. And the Pope also isn’t really a great example of state authority, given that his influence isn’t really concerned with secular matters so much.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 14th 2019 at 1:37:37 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#284978: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:37:24 PM

However, not needing it often or making it more acceptable to society isn't not needing it at all.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#284979: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:37:54 PM

[up]Indeed sometimes if the other way around: we use the concept of being legitimacy in order to avoid the using of force by establishing mecanism in how to do thing, indeed one of the best devolptment in politics is separation of the army to avoid being used as tool in political manuver.

Edited by unknowing on Jul 14th 2019 at 4:47:03 AM

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#284980: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:44:41 PM

[up] I’d argue that militaries are still a political tool. You can’t reasonably separate warfare and politics.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284981: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:46:36 PM

I'd argue all things are politics.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#284982: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:49:59 PM

[up][up],[up] Yes and now, sure warfare is politics but when warfare become a de facto tool to political advance is when things go awry, otherwise people wont be uspet when Trump try to muscle the military around the border for a political stunt and the fact they were annoyed by that is a good example of a good democracy.

I mean that happen in my country venezuela, Chavez politize the army by making a bolivarian and socialist army when they should represent all the people, eventually they become is army and now they are one of the reason my country is stuck as it is.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#284983: Jul 14th 2019 at 1:58:36 PM

[up] Warfare doesn’t need to be a de facto tool for political maneuvering, it’s already a de jure one. Politics by other means, and all that.

Civilian control of the military doesn’t mean the military isn’t political, it’s just a question of who’s politics it is.

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#284984: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:01:41 PM

Vatican City does have a military. It should also be noted that Vatican City's a very weak government, and a highly atypical one.

Actually, Vatican City can be described less as a state without much need of force, and more a nation without much need of governing at all.

Leviticus 19:34
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#284985: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:03:27 PM

And the Vatican is also under Italian (and by extension NATO) protection.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284986: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:09:25 PM

There are other small nations and communities as well without force.

Alternatives to violence for society are definitely things we need to explore.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 14th 2019 at 2:11:12 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#284987: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:13:08 PM

There isn’t such thing as a nation without force. A nation cannot exist without force. Force is the basic currency of politics.

Every nation on earth has a security apparatus, or some kind of police. Some nations don’t have militaries, but those nations still have military-style border security units and allies with militaries.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 14th 2019 at 2:13:43 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#284988: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:13:14 PM

All of those polities are under someone else's protection though.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#284989: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:15:03 PM

There's nobody out there without some sort of force.

The "monopoly on force" has absolutely nothing to do with the military, it has to do with the state having the authority to arrest people and force people to follow the law.

The fact that we give them our consent to do so through elections and political mechanisms does not change that.

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284990: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:15:21 PM

[up][up]You're really attached to this "force" (airquotes) thing. It's an unfortunate fact that we haven't divested ourselves of it in many places but you've vastly overstated its importance.

[up]Protection of other nations is often dramatically overstated and often nonexistence when actual threats arise.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#284991: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:15:50 PM

" it’s already a de jure one. Politics by other means, and all that."

And yet when party and other start using the military as politic move it become a red flag for a reason.

It ilustrated the complicated and somewhat fragile about this in that the used of force is suposed to mantain the system beyond political actors and this isnt always happen, indeed pro authoritarian often try to hijack the used of force for themselves, in part because they arent legit in the first place or have plan that wont make in the long turn.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#284992: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:17:58 PM

[up][up]Honestly I think it's less he's attached to it and more you're just going out of your way to refuse to recognize what the word force means in this whole context.

Oh really when?
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#284993: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:19:04 PM

[up][up][up] Are you really going to descend to the level of personal attacks? Come on.

There’s no overstating here. As I said, every nation on earth has a police force and a way to guard its border. It’s not something we need to move past or get over, any more than we need to get over air or water. It’s a basic quality of a nation. If a nation has no ability to apply force in some way, somewhere, then it doesn’t exist.

[up][up] I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at.

Military involvement in domestic politics isn’t inherently a bad thing. If you have a military at all, it’s likely to be involved in politics somehow by virtue of being a political organization.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 14th 2019 at 2:22:47 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#284994: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:23:20 PM

Nonviolent communities and movements in general tend to survive due to someone else's violence. For example, if you harm the Amish, the police will come after you.

Another good example would be successful nonviolent protests. In practice, a big part of how these protests work is by gaining the sympathy of third parties so that they exert force for you. You might commit some act of civil disobedience or something of the sort, so the local government or the people of your city beat the heck out of you. In turn, the federal government gets mad and passes a law enforced by violence telling that local government to cut it out.

In other words, these are not nonviolent, they are violent through proxy.

Leviticus 19:34
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#284995: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:26:25 PM

On a sidenote, we might wanna move this discussion to general politics.

Leviticus 19:34
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#284996: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:37:29 PM

Good News! Pelosi and the Squad are no longer fighting.

Bad News! It's because Trump is telling AOC and other congresswomen of color to "Go back to your countries!" So now Pelosi and the rest of the party are defending them and telling him off for being a white nationalist.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#284997: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:46:02 PM

[up]In a reasonable world, that would be a rallying point for anyone with a semblance of decency.

But “white moderates” and all that...

My musician page
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#284998: Jul 14th 2019 at 2:50:36 PM

Yet again, Trump's own family would suffer if someone applied his racist policies to his own parents. Both of his parents would have fallen foul of his chain migration policies and, thanks to his mother, he'd fall foul of his latest rant.

But as that other Democrat whose name I've forgotten observed: the only reason why Trump isn't targeting him (and other Congressmen who are in the same immigration boat) the same way these women are being targeted is because he's a white male.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jul 14th 2019 at 10:51:31 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#284999: Jul 14th 2019 at 3:00:22 PM

[up]A common rebut I see for things like that being pointed out is "but my folks assimilated unlike these new immigrants".

I'd imagine, but aren't sure, that most or all of these women were actually born in the U.S. so that's telling right there, but the line of thinking often seems to be that all Italian/Irish/German/white immigrants just immediately gave up any connections to where they came from, and immediately learned perfect English, but now new immigrants are "different".

Obviously that's complete non-sense (on the whole, I'm sure some individuals actually did do that, some still continue to), but it's a common dodge.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#285000: Jul 14th 2019 at 3:21:22 PM

White Supremacists forfeit most of their right to be assumed to argue in good faith.

I say most because maybe some of them can be reached.

But usually it's a choice.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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