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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284551: Jul 8th 2019 at 5:35:38 PM

If it can be proven that your family once owned another family, then it shouldn't be too unreasonable to make reparations.

Think of it as long overdue back pay.

Also "we elected a black President"...really Mitch? You really want to go there?

SMH

Edited by M84 on Jul 8th 2019 at 8:36:58 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#284552: Jul 8th 2019 at 5:38:42 PM

Uh, I’m less concerned about the feelings of angry white racists and way more concerned about the Black people who lived through Jim Crow and segregation and redlining and decades of discrimination and theft.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#284553: Jul 8th 2019 at 5:52:33 PM

Plus, "it'll make white people even more resentful of black people" could be a counter-argument for any kind of racial justice, making it functionally useless.

Also, the comparison of families whose ancestors owned slaves being made to compensate the descendants of the slaves that they owned to repeatedly being kicked in the teeth is... telling, to say the least.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jul 8th 2019 at 8:53:54 AM

i'm tired, my friend
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#284554: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:02:35 PM

How much should they pay and how often?

Maybe we can tax them based off three price models

$1000

$100

$10

Edited by Ultimatum on Jul 8th 2019 at 1:02:51 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#284556: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:21:31 PM

He was a happy fellow wasn't he?

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#284557: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:41:29 PM

"It might make people feel bad" is rarely an argument that should be taken into account when debating the ethics of something like reparations. Now while I've come to be in support of reparations I'm of the opinion it might not be the best choice for other reasons such as matters of practicality including verification and genealogy issues, or unrelated ethical matters over things such as Sins of Our Fathers, but broad emotions are too irrational and illogical to be useful when evaluating policy decisions like these.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jul 8th 2019 at 9:42:29 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284558: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:43:02 PM

Yeah, that's the main sticking point for me too. The whole "proof that one family owned another family" thing might be a bit difficult to actually confirm in some cases.

Not in Mitch's though.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#284559: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:49:56 PM

Doing it in the form of targeted government assistance is probably a better call. Throwing raw cash at any problem is often a overly simple and ineffective solution.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284560: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:57:29 PM

Basically, while there are valid concerns about how to actually apply reparations for slavery, "it might upset angry racists" is't really one of them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284561: Jul 8th 2019 at 6:59:15 PM

turns out that kicking people in the teeth repeated isn't a good way to make them like you or any of their friends or family who are neutral to you but like them.

When Affirmative Action happened there was a massive backlash and there has been similar ones to just about every single thing designed to help black people. The answer being because they're racist. You need to do them not because it avoids upsetting racists because it does upset them—and normalizes them.

Doing it in the form of targeted government assistance is probably a better call. Throwing raw cash at any problem is often a overly simple and ineffective solution.

The problem with any assistance program is self-obvious. It doesn't provide reparations for slavery.

Reparations for slavery are not to correct the imbalances and problems of black Americans.

They're to take a concrete and material stand that what was done to them was illegal and wrong.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 8th 2019 at 7:01:07 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#284562: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:00:17 PM

In Mitch's specific case, he might just find distant cousins he didn't want to know he had. You know, the part of the family the rest have been screwing over since, well...

That male-to-female ratio raised my eyebrows just a teensy bit.

Edited by Euodiachloris on Jul 8th 2019 at 3:41:23 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284563: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:02:53 PM

Basically, reparations for slavery are an end to themselves which I don't think a lot of people understand.

You don't do them to improve lives, you do them to permanently mark on the record disgust and reaffirm justice is not on the side of the institution.

It's part of a much larger effort but if you don't give money for it, it's just words.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284564: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:07:03 PM

[up][up]Yeah, that crossed my mind too.

[up]I'd rather have reparations be something that actually does help people.

Edited by M84 on Jul 8th 2019 at 10:08:28 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#284565: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:11:55 PM

[up]x2 I mean, not really? They'll help, but there's still a lot of overt and subtle prejudice and racism that still needs to be fought against.

Also, while we're on the subject of Reparations, I'm also in favor of giving reparations to Native American Communities, especially those in Oklahoma.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284566: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:13:26 PM

Yeah, the idea that giving reparations would somehow signify an end to the struggle is as wrong as the idea that Obama's election signified an end to it.

Concerning the Native people being paid reparations...while it would help and be a nice gesture, I think a lot of them don't want money. They want their land back.

Edited by M84 on Jul 8th 2019 at 10:15:02 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284567: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:45:16 PM

I'd rather have reparations be something that actually does help people.

Reparations need to be made for justice.

Justice by itself.

Anything else is gravy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 8th 2019 at 7:51:58 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#284568: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:48:58 PM

I mean, my definition of justice entails helping people in some fashion. It's important to make statements, but statements are better when they're also accompanied by some sort of tangible effect or benefit.

Not even saying that reparations can't be that, just giving my thoughts.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284569: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:51:42 PM

Concerning the Native people being paid reparations...while it would help and be a nice gesture, I think a lot of them don't want money. They want their land back.

Not...really?

I mean, the thing is the Native American tribes of the United States are actually pretty clear about their lists of demands and issues with the American government.

They're just ignored.

Often in conjunction with people campaigning for them. I used to keep up with Native activism and it more or less goes like this:

  • They want their sovereignty recognized.
    • They want their dual citizenship recognized rather than ignored.
    • They want to be able to prosecute Americans who commit crimes against Natives and Natives to be tried under Native law whenever possible.
    • They want representation in issues that concern Natives like, say, Trump building a fucking pipeline through their lands (and would be happy with just the option to say, "Fuck no.")
    • They want their laws to apply to their land and territory versus state laws.
    • They want people to stop trying to "integrate" them by force (which is still going on).
    • The ability to prosecute lawsuits against companies and people who have done crimes against Natives.
    • The ability to make business opportunities that might be illegal in other locations.
    • The ability to determine their own tribal citizenship ("blood purity" is something the United States has frequently enforced).

The majority of tribes aren't adverse to taking money from the US government but it usually comes with a shitload of strings attached.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#284570: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:52:11 PM

Well, since black people typically have a paltry net worth, if it isn't negative, a cash subsidy in the form of reparations would be a significant material benefit. I mean, yes, reparations are important to redress an injustice, but if at the end of the day, these people are still living in structurally-imposed squalor, it's just performative.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284571: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:53:15 PM

I mean, my definition of justice entails helping people in some fashion. It's important to make statements, but statements are better when they're also accompanied by some sort of tangible effect or benefit.

Not even saying that reparations can't be that, just giving my thoughts.

My view is that if you gave every black person who could probably trace his lineage back to a slave in America $25,000 then it's not going to solve racism.

But it makes a powerful statement.

Then we have to move onto dealing with affordable housing, jobs, police brutality, overimprisonment, pardons for disproportionately punished crimes, and other institutional issues that aren't slavery related directly.

Well, since black people typically have a paltry net worth, if it isn't negative, a cash subsidy in the form of reparations would be a significant material benefit. I mean, yes, reparations are important to redress an injustice, but if at the end of the day, these people are still living in structurally-imposed squalor, it's just performative.

It is performative.

Because the idea you can actually put a number on a 200 year Holocaust is ridiculous.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 8th 2019 at 7:54:50 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284572: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:55:36 PM

[up][up][up]All of that boils down to "they want their land back". They don't just want money. They want more sovereignty. They want more respect. They want what was taken from them.

[up]If you just want to ease white guilt, performative stuff is fine I guess. But if you want to actually help people...

You're kind of giving the impression that making a statement is more important to you.

Edited by M84 on Jul 8th 2019 at 10:58:05 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#284573: Jul 8th 2019 at 7:57:08 PM

Well, they don't necessarily want the United States back. They want control over their land and self-determination.

I feel the need to clarify because the FBI and J Hoover were frequently prone to saying they were determined to kick the white people out.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Wheezy @TheCSJones on everything else. from West Philadelphia, but not born or raised. (Elder Troper) Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
@TheCSJones on everything else.
#284574: Jul 8th 2019 at 10:24:22 PM

This isn't related to anything, it's just a thought I think was inappropriate for the "post your random thoughts" thread:

It really annoys me how the right wing uses Obfuscating Stupidity to avoid accountability. I kicked the dog? What's a dog? How do you know they don't like being kicked? What's kicking, anyway?

Novel progress: The Adroan, 110k; Yume no Hime, 98k; The Pigeon Witch, on pause at 40k.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#284575: Jul 8th 2019 at 10:27:03 PM

They do it because, like a lot of the scummy shit they pull, it works.

Just look at how EA and other big corporations claim they made "mistakes" whenever someone draws attention to their bullshit. Those aren't mistakes. Those are deliberate profit-making strategies.

And while a lot of people aren't fooled by this, plenty of others do fall for it and engage in apologia on their behalf.

This also makes the people calling them out look like the Bad Guy. Like how if a bully "apologizes" to their victim and the victim doesn't accept it, suddenly it's the victim who looks like the jerk.

Edited by M84 on Jul 9th 2019 at 1:28:26 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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