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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#283526: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:18:44 PM

And in a couple bits of interesting news, we have:

  • Rep. Duncan Hunter (R-CA) accused of misusing campaign funds. $250,000 or so was allegedly embezzled by he and his wife to pay for vacations and their children's schooling, and he personally used it to (again, allegedly) help pay for at least five extramarital affairs with lobbyists and staffers. His wife, incidentally, has already pleaded guilty and is cooperating.

  • The citizenship question was sent back to a lower court to consider the new evidence in play regarding the overt discriminatory aspect of the rationale (read: the late GOP strategist's overt statements in the affirmative in private documents).

  • The CBO just announced projections of the Federal Debt rising to 144% of GDP by 2049, fueled primarily by increases in Social Security claims and the fucking tax cuts. It will be the highest debt reached since post-WWII.

The CBO forecast that under existing laws, the debt would reach 78% of gross domestic product by the end of 2019 and 144% of GDP by 2049. While those estimates are slightly lower than those made last year and remain highly uncertain, the nonpartisan office said they still present risks to the economy.

"The prospect of such high and rising debt poses substantial risks for the nation and presents policymakers with significant challenges," the CBO said in its "Long-Term Budget Outlook" report, adding that the US would see even larger increases in debt if lawmakers reversed course on plans to slash spending in 2020 and to let tax cuts expire in 2026.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jun 25th 2019 at 4:21:40 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283527: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:21:07 PM

I can certainly get why someone might not want to answer 'no' to the citizenship question. On the other hand, it seems like a pretty pertinent question for a national census.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#283528: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:24:08 PM

If it weren't being included for inherently racist reasons, you might have a point. Since it is, it taints any legitimacy the question might have.

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#283529: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:25:51 PM

The concern is that by scaring noncitizens away from reporting to the census it will artificially decrease the population of states with many of them. And thus rig the redistricting in 2020 against them. It's not simply a matter of racism, it's also a matter of fraud.

Regarding Warren's proposals, I don't like asking this question but are these laws, constitutional amendments or executive orders?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#283530: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:27:39 PM

[up][up][up]

Except part of why the Census is conducted - besides determining how many Reps in the House each State gets - is to help determine allocations of Federal funds for a lot of stuff.

The census also helps with the equitable distribution of public funds, De Jong says, as federal and state funding for things like educational programs, healthcare, law enforcement and highways is allocated in part based on population. "Equitably distributing the billions of dollars of public money requires up-to-date population data."

So not having the actual population of an area accurately factored in there is detrimental, to say the least. Beyond that, as others have pointed out (as did the article I linked to), evidence has come to light that it's blatantly a racial bias at play here, as the Republicans expect it to disproportionately impact Hispanic communities, thus weakening Democratic power.

Per the first link in the article referenced above, which is about a different development in the same case:

Thomas Hofeller, who died last August, concluded in a 2015 report that adding the question would produce the data needed to redraw political maps that would be "advantageous to Republicans and Non-Hispanic Whites," according to a court filing released Thursday.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jun 25th 2019 at 4:37:57 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#283531: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:34:01 PM

[up]I imagine the response to that would be (not from Soban, but from the ones pushing for this): "if they're in the country illegally, they shouldn't count, and those states shouldn't be getting money for them anyway."

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#283532: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:34:35 PM

There’s a solid argument for all the additional info sections on the census (race, age, gender, religion, ect..) being optional extras.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283533: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:34:48 PM

The citizenship question has been a part of taking a census for a long time.

NPR: FACT CHECK: Has Citizenship Been A Standard Census Question?

The last time a citizenship question was among the census questions for all U.S. households was in 1950. That form asked where each person was born and in a follow-up question asked, "If foreign born — Is he naturalized?"

In 1960, there was no such question about citizenship, only about place of birth.

...

In 1970, the Census Bureau began sending around two questionnaires: a short-form questionnaire to gather basic population information and a long form that asked detailed questions about everything from household income to plumbing. The short form went to most households in America. The long form was sent to a much smaller sample of households, 1 in 6. Most people didn't get it.

Starting in 1970, questions about citizenship were included in the long-form questionnaire but not the short form. For instance, in 2000, those who received the long form were asked, "Is this person a CITIZEN of the United States?"

...

Later, the census added the American Community Survey, conducted every year and sent to 3.5 million households. It began being fully implemented in 2005. It asks many of the same questions as the census long-form surveys from 1970 to 2000, including the citizenship question.

Sanders said that in 2010 the citizenship question was removed. In fact, there was no long form that year — it had been replaced by the annual American Community Survey. The decennial census form asked just 10 questions.

To sum up

Citizenship Question?

1950: Yes

1960: No

1970: Yes on Long Form

1980: Yes on Long Form

1990: Yes on Long Form

2000: Yes on Long Form

2010: Yes via the American Community Survey which replaced the long form.

So the last five have had the citizenship question on them.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#283534: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:35:36 PM

No one has any thoughts on Warren’s voting and elections plan?

It was great well crafted, insightful, and deeply needed.

In other words, it was normal for Warren.

It's like how Trump doing something vile and stupid doesn't cause much discussion, it's very much an expected occurence. The same for Warren releasing a detailed and well put together plan.

Still, [tup] for posting it. It was interesting.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 25th 2019 at 1:36:30 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#283535: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:44:08 PM

To me, the citizenship question always struck me as a convenient method for ICE to figure out who to round up next. Like, if you mark that you're not a citizen (yet), are they gonna say, "Yep, ____ admitted to being here illegally. Send a van of 15 heavily armed officers to this address."?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#283536: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:44:29 PM

I have found some very interesting poling information.

Kamala Harris has picked up two endorsements from the Congressional Black Caucus in the past 24 hours

Besides being obviously good for Harris this is, more importantly, quite bad for Biden. Because it brings her to a total of three endorsements, closer to his five. At the moment, old African-Americans are part of the people supporting him and if they abandon Biden for Harris then his chances of winnning should decrease notably.

All in all, quite excellent news grin

The second bit of news is good for Warren and quite bad for Sanders.

A poll for the progressive public advocacy group MoveOn has Warren in the lead with 37.8%, Bernie Sanders 16.5%, and Joe Biden 14.9%.

Further context should demonstrate how important this is, in 2016 80% of Move On prefered Bernie to Hillary. T He fact Sanders only has two points more support then Biden amongst them is just brutal.

So Warren's chances of victory could very well go even higher if this is represenative amongst progressives.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 25th 2019 at 1:45:13 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#283537: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:51:03 PM

Also.

I almost never hear it mentioned that of people are here legally who are not US citizens. The "illegal immigrants shouldn't count" argument doesn't even jive since the vast majority of non-citizens in the country are still here legally. There's a reason "lawful permanent resident" is a thing. Hell, my wife isn't even a permanent resident and she pays more than I do in taxes.

But it's a question meant to disenfranchise and scare non-white people. So who cares, right?

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#283538: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:54:30 PM

2010: Yes via the American Community Survey which replaced the long form.

So the last five have had the citizenship question on them.

For context, the Long Form census with the citizenship question went to less than 17% of the population.

The American Community Survey goes to less than 1%.

Edited by Parable on Jun 25th 2019 at 1:55:14 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#283539: Jun 25th 2019 at 1:54:30 PM

[up][up]

Honestly, I had the same thought cross my mind when making my last post (not the page-topper), but didn't know how many of them are legally allowed to vote in Federal elections, which tends to be the thrust of the argument as presented.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jun 25th 2019 at 4:54:41 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#283540: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:01:33 PM

If I'm not remember wrong, something like 30% of immigrants are in the country illegally. Which is a lot of people, but obviously not most immigrants. And even then, as has been mentioned repeatedly, illegal immigrants are much more likely to be exploited than do any harm to the country.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283541: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:31:58 PM

In my ideal world, it wouldn't matter how you got here or how long you wanted to stay, as long as you paid your taxes. Current illegal aliens might be asked to pay back taxes for the time they have been here, but that's about it. You pay your taxes, you get the government services. If you want to decide what the government does, then you need to go through the process of becoming a citizen. But if you don't care about that, you don't have to become a citizen.

~~~

Edit: Intresting.

NPR: Analysis: The Politics Of National Humiliation In The Trump-Xi Meeting

Humiliation. In China, it is a word laden with history and identity that is playing a role in the high-stakes trade war between the U.S. and China.

This month, I was visiting China with a small group of journalists for 10 days, and the word "humiliation" came up over and over again in conversations both public and private, in meetings with top government officials, university scholars, think tankers and corporate executives.

The Chinese clearly like to play the humiliation card. Almost all of them shared the feelings of disrespect and humiliation that course through them when President Trump accuses the country of going back on its word or threatens President Xi Jinping with tariffs. Both country's leaders go head-to-head this week at the Group of 20 summit in Japan.

"The only thing we ask the U.S. to do is respect us," said Yu Dunhai, deputy director general at China's Ministry of Foreign Affairs. "If bullied, China will not simply kneel before the U.S."

It's worth noting that Yu began his meeting by talking about how China "is an old country with 5,000 years of history."

It is this ancient history that the Chinese are very proud of, and they consider a century-long period of subjugation by foreign powers from the 19th to 20th centuries an aberration — 100 years of humiliation.

...

In the Communist Party's ideological reeducation of the country's population, humiliation by foreign powers is a strong emotional underpinning of the country's national identity.

... because of their accomplishments today, Zheng says, there is a feeling that "other countries have to respect China."

...

David Daokui Li, an economics professor at Tsinghua University, said, "China is a country that needs respect."

...

given the country's image of itself, Xi has to avoid anything that has the semblance of humiliation even though he is meeting a world leader who has shown no qualms about humiliating others.

...

If Xi caves in to Trump's threats, he risks not just looking weak but as bowing to humiliation rained down from the West once again. But the cost of angering Trump could jeopardize the economic miracle that is China.

Edited by Soban on Jun 25th 2019 at 5:42:56 AM

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#283542: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:40:33 PM

So what about people who can't pay taxes, like the homeless?

"You can reply to this Message!"
tyrekecorrea Miss, not ma'am Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Miss, not ma'am
#283543: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:43:44 PM

[up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up][up]

Is it really accurate or fair to say that people in rural communities at large have abandoned Democrats?

HailMuffins Since: May, 2016 Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
#283544: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:46:07 PM

[up]If the comment you're responding to is too far up, just link it back or put the handles' name before, like:

"@Mr X: something something"

Otherwise, it just gets confusing.

Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283545: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:47:17 PM

[up][up][up]In general, I'm agnostic about which tax policy. If we are talking about the current system, if you make below a certain amount, you don't need to file taxes. In my ideal world, we would probably have some form of negative income tax.

Edited by Soban on Jun 25th 2019 at 5:47:45 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283546: Jun 25th 2019 at 2:47:58 PM

> So what about people who can't pay taxes, like the homeless?

clearly the solution is to make them pay a homeless tax

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#283547: Jun 25th 2019 at 3:06:31 PM

Current illegal aliens might be asked to pay back taxes for the time they have been here, but that's about it.

The "funny" thing is, given the types of menial labor that those here illegally tend to take, odds are pretty high that the they'd actually get money back on their taxes, provided they weren't paid under-the-table to start with. Payroll taxes, Social Security, Medicaid? They aren't entitled to a damn bit of it under the current system, so they're literally paying money in that they'd never be able to claim.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#283548: Jun 25th 2019 at 3:07:56 PM

The homeless do pay taxes, everyone pays sales tax.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283549: Jun 25th 2019 at 3:08:21 PM

[up][up]Getting them to 'pay their fair share' of taxes when they would actually probably be getting money back is part of the 'con' (for the lack of a better word) when I discuss this with more rightward people.

Edited by Soban on Jun 25th 2019 at 6:08:56 AM

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#283550: Jun 25th 2019 at 6:11:22 PM

Breaking: Mueller will testfy in open session in front of both the House Judiciary and Intelligence Committees on July 17th because of subpoenas from Nadler and Schiff.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."

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