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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#283301: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:09:18 PM

[up][up]Personally, considering our history with extremists and authorities clashing tend to end up badly for everyone, I hope the police stall that for as long as possible.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#283302: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:10:36 PM

[up][up][up] I doubt it. The most those guys seem actually willing to do is posture around in a standoff, and as we saw in Malheur once the shooting starts it doesn’t really go in their favor.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:11:01 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283303: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:14:39 PM

> They're concentration camps.

I dont think anyone here is arguing that're not

BUT

I can see why someone might object to comparisons with the Nazi Death camps,its an extreme comparison so its easier for them dismiss

Edited by Ultimatum on Jun 22nd 2019 at 9:15:40 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#283304: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:17:18 PM

Except there is always plenty of death to be found in poorly planned concentration camps.

See the Boer War. And compare and contrast to this lot. The similarities (and awfully bad logistics) are uncanny.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#283305: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:20:08 PM

Personally I would have gone with comparing them to the Japanese internment camps.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#283306: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:25:11 PM

From what I gather...

  • Concentration camp: A place where lots of people are imprisoned without specific charges or trials.
  • Death camp: A place that is specifically established and/or designed/repurposed for the explicit goal to kill people that are sent there as "prisoners".

Technically speaking, a death camp cannot be a concentration camp except as a pretense for the public or as a "temporary" side function that precedes its actual purpose of murdering the inmates.

Just my two cents.

@AceofSpades: I'm not worried about the police not stalling. I'm worried about the possibility of a group being fanatical and desperate enough that they'd hold hostages and start making crazy demands of the government.

@Archonspeaks: I hope you're right about them being too full of shit and/or incompetence to actually be a genuine threat (for long, at least).

Edited by MarqFJA on Jun 22nd 2019 at 12:27:51 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283307: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:47:44 PM

All Nazi camps were concentration camps, not all concentration camps were Nazi camps.

The Trump camps are places to concentrate people.

You can also refer to them as prison camps.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#283308: Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:48:31 PM

The minute they start holding actual people hostage is the moment they've committed a crime that really can't be ignored or stalled the way they did when it was just a building. The police would have to take some kind of action at that point.

Edit; But I also haven't heard them threatening to do that. Shoot the police yes, on the pretense of self defense, but not holding anyone hostage.

Edited by AceofSpades on Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:49:15 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#283309: Jun 22nd 2019 at 3:00:14 PM

Even without the Concentration Camp comparison, we also have the Japanese Internment Camps as a near-identical, purely American atrocity to compare to.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283310: Jun 22nd 2019 at 3:04:08 PM

Given the Trump administration compares them to Summer Camps, I'm fine with believing they're going to object to any negative association.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#283311: Jun 22nd 2019 at 3:25:32 PM

Personally, considering our history with extremists and authorities clashing tend to end up badly for everyone, I hope the police stall that for as long as possible.

The problem is that stalling often means giving in, when the groups are able to threaten the police enough that the police back down, you’ve lost the monopoly of force, exactly the same as if ISIS set up shop in the US are nobody did anything about to because they didn’t want a mess.

The problem of right-wing militias has been growing for decades, if its not stomped out now it will continue to grow and grow until the militias are powerful enough to pose a serious military threat.

If the police can’t handle them then the national guard need to be sent in, before the militias grow to the point where the national guard can’t handle them.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283312: Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:08:53 PM

I wouldn't say the issue is growing. It's just previously, all of them were part of the KKK.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#283313: Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:12:19 PM

To talk of those camps really just gets me back to wonder how the Trump years are going to be framed in, like, 50 years in schools and stuff.

I mean, even now you have a lot of opposition to that, but I highly doubt anything negative (under the guise of neutrality) would be said in textbooks about Trump while he's still alive, and for awhile after his death.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283314: Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:15:26 PM

Depends on who writes the text books.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#283315: Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:17:17 PM

I think that depends on what textbook policy is like in fifty years. Right now school texts are framed as neutrally as possible, or just doesn't mention them at all. If things stay the same, I imagine that school texts will fail to mention the camps at all, while texts meant for college students and more general adult audiences will be far more opinionated on the matter.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283316: Jun 22nd 2019 at 4:34:57 PM

Bluntly it's a major flaw of textbooks as you have Warren G. Harding bombing Americans during the coal wars and not getting taught at all.

It's too charged a subject matter.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#283317: Jun 22nd 2019 at 5:06:59 PM

Considering concentration camps got their very names from the Boer War, for which extermination was not the primary goal but for which morale breakage was and death and disease a not-unwelcome side effect, it's disingenuous to consider active extermination a necessary requirement for the label. In this sense the immigrant holding camps are shockingly similar to the original namesakes.

And I don't think the people calling them concentration camps are necessarily equating them to the Nazi death camps (and if they are, while deaths motivated by racism are a likely goal of these assholes the similarities are a bit more tenuous), but AOC seems like a person at least decently enough versed in history to know of the Boer War so she can stir up the emotions while having an accurate historical anchor point to compare to.

Edited by AlleyOop on Jun 22nd 2019 at 8:09:10 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283318: Jun 22nd 2019 at 5:16:38 PM

I think AOC is using the linguistic definition versus necessarily the historical precedent and every association they bring up is fully intended.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#283319: Jun 22nd 2019 at 5:20:15 PM

That's what I mean, she went with the term "concentration camp" because she both knows of the associations it has with Nazism and also the fact that it's historically accurate in its own way, as opposed to calling them "death camps" which is also charged but lacks the historical accuracy angle so they can't smear her with a gotcha so easily.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#283320: Jun 22nd 2019 at 6:53:12 PM

So AOC apparently poked a Hornet's Nest with her comparison of ICE camps and concentration camps....

Whats your opinion on this?

Personally I would have gone with comparing them to the Japanese internment camps.

George Takei has also been tweeting in support of the concentration camp label based on his own experience in the Japanese camps.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Jun 22nd 2019 at 2:54:14 PM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283321: Jun 22nd 2019 at 8:59:46 PM

I take no small solace in the fact that AOC is turning an internet description of the camps into public discourse.

And that the GOP backfired by getting a lot of people to state, yes, they are really concentration camps.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#283322: Jun 22nd 2019 at 9:42:44 PM

Ugh, and apparently a Trump administration official actually argued that the children being held in these places aren't necessarily entitled to toothbrushes, toothpaste, or soap, on the basis that it's intended as a "shorter stay." As if 3 days without being able to brush their teeth is good for a kid, or 3 days without a shower in 80+ degree weather.

Actually, nix that - apparently this case dates back to Obama's presidency... which makes me all the more keen to not have Biden get in.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jun 22nd 2019 at 12:44:34 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#283323: Jun 22nd 2019 at 11:02:54 PM

They're concentration camps in the classical sense - they are not now death camps, though deaths do happen there with alarming frequency. They are meant to round up people who the state has decreed to be wrong for seeking asylum, and put them into literal camps in poor conditions. It is one of the most horrible things to come out of the Trump Presidency, quite probably at the top of the list - and that is not for lack of competition.

[up] Jesus Christ in Heaven. Any future generations will never forgive us for this, and rightly so.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#283324: Jun 23rd 2019 at 1:38:44 AM

[up] They'll certainly know that was a ton of visible opposition to all these policies, just like in the times of slavery, starting from the fact that Trump did not even win the popular vote.

Life is unfair...
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#283325: Jun 23rd 2019 at 2:03:36 AM

Not really. The small white Southern farmers who opposed slavery don't get much space in the history books either.


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