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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#283176: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:09:32 AM

It's striking to hear somebody say that so soon after the Iraq War had gone sour and a pre-emptive strike had really created a mess for the administration.

Look back on the Iran nuclear program thread and you'll see that neoconservatives never learn the lesson, believing that any invasion should be a piece of cake, because no country has even got a chance to hurt the exceptional US military.

Life is unfair...
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#283177: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:11:14 AM

Obviously we can defeat Iran. I don't think that's in question, but neither is it the primary issue at hand.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#283178: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:17:47 AM

Yeah. The question is not "Can we defeat Iran?" The question is "Should we defeat Iran?"

Trump has nothing to gain and everything to lose by invading Iran, both internationally and domestically. The only argument in favor of invasion is Iran's nuclear program, and that to me honestly feels like it has a huge potential for backfire.

If we start shooting up Iran until international and domestic pressure forces Trump to withdraw (or we change Presidents), Iran can spin that in front of the international community. It would be trivially easy for them to say "This, right here, is why we need to have nuclear weapons. That shit would never have happened to a nuclear-armed country."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 21st 2019 at 8:19:31 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#283179: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:19:40 AM

It's almost as if the US is the biggest threat to global peace, or something...

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#283180: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:20:56 AM

Trump realizing that this would destroy him. His supporters don't want a war either as racist as they are against brown people.

Nah, Trump blinked because he always blinks. He's a coward who hates the idea of committing resources for anything, normally a vice but even vices can be useful. As his pulling away from the brink demonstrates.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283181: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:23:11 AM

Worst that can happen is that Iran makes the first move and gives the US a reason to retaliate,outside of shooting down a drone,it would have to be a serious attack costing lives

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#283182: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:24:36 AM

'Only the US is allowed to have WMD's.'

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#283183: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:26:25 AM

[up][up] Yes. Which is why Iran isn't going to make the first move. Unlike Trump, they actually have something to gain from a war with the U.S.: improved international standing and diplomatic relations brought on by being the victims of an unjust occupation. Where a war with Iran would utterly destroy Trump's reputation both foreign and domestic, Iran could spin it to their benefit.

But that is only true so long as they do not shoot first. That's why Trump and Bolton are desperately trying to find something they can spin, "Iraq's Weapons of Mass Destruction" style, to make it look like we totes had a good reason to attack them.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 21st 2019 at 8:27:21 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#283184: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:26:32 AM

[up][up]<Looks at every other country with nukes>

Edited by M84 on Jun 21st 2019 at 10:26:40 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#283185: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:27:12 AM

"I don't trust anyone with WMDs, but I distrust our side the least.'' Of course, with Trump at the top, that torturous double-negative no longer applies.

Also, Iran has been poking at us in ways that are not overt enough to provoke unequivocal international support for a counterattack. This is something they are very good at. They are much better at it than Trump is at responding to it, which is obviously why they are doing it now.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 21st 2019 at 10:29:04 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#283186: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:31:21 AM

Iran has been poking at us because we withdrew from the Iran Nuclear Deal and Trump has been cozying up to people who wanted to invade them.

Obama had to deal with a lot of lunatics who wanted to start a war for no reason.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jun 21st 2019 at 7:34:38 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#283187: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:32:22 AM

It's perfectly consistent and logical to not want more nuclear-armed states, especially one who is hostile to you.

Which is why Trump's decision to leave the Iran Deal is so deplorable and idiotic.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 21st 2019 at 7:33:33 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#283188: Jun 21st 2019 at 7:59:02 AM

John Bolton wants a war with Iran. He's wanted it for years. He wants it more than anything else in the world. His little black heart seethes with rage at Iran's existence. And he's Trump's National Security Adviser. It's not hard to follow.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 21st 2019 at 10:59:30 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283189: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:29:45 AM

Well at least he's not going to flay anyone any time soon

-badum tish-

Edited by Ultimatum on Jun 21st 2019 at 3:30:14 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#283190: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:32:39 AM

Eh, I doubt Bolton would have the guts to be that hands-on with his butchery.

And yes, I'm aware it's a reference to House Bolton.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#283191: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:33:52 AM

@ M84 Fair enough, maybe "Only WE get to decide who has WMD's!" is more accurate.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#283192: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:42:24 AM

Only the countries with nukes get to decide who else can have nukes. That's the basic idea in the age of nuclear diplomacy. There's a certain inexorable logic to it. "We trust each other, because we've had them and not blown each other up. We don't trust anyone else in the same way." It's a tense, but mutual understanding. When a crazy person like Donald Trump takes hold of one of those nations, however, the delicate balance is upset.

Edited by Fighteer on Jun 21st 2019 at 11:43:12 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#283193: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:45:34 AM

If I thought we would go to war and then spend the next 20+ish years putting things back right, I might support a war. However, I doubt that is what we would do given our recent history and no one is talking about what happens after we win.

I think Trump is a dove in his heart, but he's got some really bad advisors.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283194: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:58:44 AM

> I think Trump is a dove in his heart, but he's got some really bad advisors.

Really does'nt matter what his advises tell him because he won't listen,its all on him,and the idea that Trump is a dove is laughable

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#283195: Jun 21st 2019 at 8:59:53 AM

Trump is a gullible, narcissistic idiot. He has no moral backbone; no courage. He'll take whatever action he thinks is most likely to make him, personally, look good.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#283196: Jun 21st 2019 at 9:00:07 AM

Also, invading Iran might make Hamas and Hezbollah (and maybe the Zaidi's of Yemen) go all in in attacking Israel; Iran's the main backer of these Organizations (especially because Hezbollah and the Zaidi's are Shi'ite Factions), and with the loss of their main source of weapons and money, they might think they have no choice but to go to war with Israel, at least one last time. Iraq and Syria (also led by Shi'ites) might also join that war, and could possibly also attack Americans in Iran.

It'd be a massive mess.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#283197: Jun 21st 2019 at 9:03:00 AM

I can't help thinking "chickenhawk" would be a better descriptor than "dove". Dove implies it's a matter of principle, which is never the case for Trump.

Meanwhile, Trump talks a hawkish game but chickens out when it's time to put up or shut up.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 21st 2019 at 10:03:56 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#283198: Jun 21st 2019 at 9:04:18 AM

He's a goose,always honking but flees at the mere response

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#283199: Jun 21st 2019 at 9:08:20 AM

I respect the aim of the metaphor, but geese will absolutely mess you up, so it's best not to view them that way.

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#283200: Jun 21st 2019 at 9:10:17 AM

[up][up][up]Chickenhawk refers to people who talk a big game about going to war but have never actually served in the military (or worse, chickened out of military service).

So I guess that would still fit Trump, given his "bone-spurs".

Disgusted, but not surprised

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