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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#282876: Jun 18th 2019 at 9:17:12 AM

Whether it’s technically legal or not, though, they’ve been doing it, and that’s the issue here. Legality is often irrelevant to Trump and his crew.

[awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome]

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#282877: Jun 18th 2019 at 9:23:19 AM

Again, not the same thing.

The guy in the article was held because he committed a felony and his name was misspelled in immigration records. That’s not the same thing as ICE agents hassling random people on the street.

They should have sent a poet.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#282878: Jun 18th 2019 at 9:33:40 AM

I think the point is that ICE will start harassing random people in the streets, whether it's legal or not.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 18th 2019 at 1:23:26 PM

i'm tired, my friend
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#282880: Jun 18th 2019 at 10:30:43 AM

I feel we've looped back to his campaign statement that "you have to go after terrorists' families"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#282881: Jun 18th 2019 at 10:41:57 AM

We've never left that statement. Trump escalated the number of drone strikes performed overseas while also suppressing reports on civilian casualties.

It's just that he's also applying that logic to immigrants as well. Which is another thing he has already been doing, ever since his child separation plan went into effect.

So far as I understand, what Trump is trying to do here isn't new. It's just more. As with many things he's done since beating the Mueller Investigation, it's the same thing he's been doing, but moreso. Now that he has nothing to fear from congressional oversight, he's going Full Trump on every horrible agenda item he has.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 18th 2019 at 11:42:37 AM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#282882: Jun 18th 2019 at 10:45:00 AM

Well, Shanahan is out as Acting Defense Secretary, in part because of a domestic violence incident from 9 years ago, where he and his wife claimed that the other had punched them. He will be replaced by Mark Esper, current Secretary of the Army in the "Acting" capacity, though no word yet on who'll get the nomination.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Aleistar Since: Feb, 2018 Relationship Status: Hugging my pillow
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#282884: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:02:26 AM

[up]x6 That would be somewhat unprecedented if it was the case, and I can’t imagine it would last long given how obviously illegal it is. Hell, the second those people went before a judge they’d be cut loose as if the stop is bad everything stemming from the stop is thrown out

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 18th 2019 at 11:02:38 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#282885: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:05:28 AM

[up][up]I believe that the investigation is being restarted.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#282886: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:07:40 AM

[up][up] I can’t share your optimism given how the courts have been complicit in decades of racial profiling, forced guilty pleas, police brutality, and mass incarceration.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#282887: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:11:51 AM

[up] Even the most openly racist court can’t ignore something like that. Fruit of the poisonous tree is a pretty fundamental legal concept.

I’m not seeing Trump being able to radically rework basic legal concepts on short order.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 18th 2019 at 11:13:05 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#282888: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:23:14 AM

You'd be surprised what open racists can ignore.

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ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#282889: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:38:45 AM

Trump isn’t the one that’s radically reworked anything; the system has been complicit in bigotry from the beginning. It was designed that way and is working as designed.

Racists can and will twist the law to actively screw over minorities on any way they can. Courts have let bigots off with a slap on the wrist, if that, if they’re targeting people the system doesn’t care about or is actively working to hinder. Stop and frisk and other dubiously legal law enforcement procedures have been a thing before actively targeting and incarcerating minorities, and this isn’t any different.

The prepared and savvy person can fight back with the letter of the law, but most people don’t have that knowledge and are fully at the mercy of said agents. Optimism and what the law says is one thing, but you can’t use the law to shame or scare people that don’t give a shit about the law other than how they can use it to enforce their anti-[insert minority group here] agenda.

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#282890: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:43:46 AM

Apparently at Trump's rally in Orlando supporters can expect "face high temperatures, thunderstorms during wait" that's sounding pretty ominous but thats probably just my superstitious side talking..

source

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#282891: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:54:36 AM

On the subject of deportation, I feel like certain people who are (justifiably) worried, are taking what other people are saying of "yeah, it's bad, but let's keep things in perspective" as equivalent to "it's not actually that bad." And I think that happens a lot with these kinds of conversations.

I get it, but literally no one said any of this is okay, or even not terrible. At a certain point it almost feels like putting words in other people's mouths.

Edited by LSBK on Jun 18th 2019 at 1:55:05 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#282892: Jun 18th 2019 at 11:54:41 AM

Even the most openly racist court can’t ignore something like that. Fruit of the poisonous tree is a pretty fundamental legal concept.

I just graduated from law school magna cum laude and am studying for the bar exam. I just did my criminal procedure outline two days ago. And I’m gonna just flatly tell you that YES, judges constantly ignore the spirit of the fourth amendment and other constitutional protections.

First of all, the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine has multiple exceptions that severely limit it. The fourth amendment in general has so many exceptions that it’s like a piece of Swiss cheese that’s mostly holes.

Did you know that staying silent doesn’t invoke your right to silence? You have to SAY that you’re invoking it. Ditto for invoking your right to counsel. “Maybe I need a lawyer” doesn’t count. “Give me a lawyer, dawg” doesn’t count because, I shit you not, the court found that wasn’t clear and there’s no such thing as a lawyer dog (mm, smells like racism and ignoring dialects used by people of color).

Did you know if cops don’t give you a Miranda warning, your confession can still be admitted to impeach, even though it can’t be admitted for the case in chief? So the jury still knows about it, even though they’re not supposed to use it to determine guilt.... guess what. They don’t forget about the confession just because the judge says to only use it for one purpose.

Did you know that courts have upheld a 20+ year prison sentence for possession of small quantities of drugs because it’s not so excessive it violates the eighth amendment? Did you know cops are allowed to lie to suspects during interrogation? And all of this is off the top of my head, tip of the iceberg.

To be clear, I don’t think anyone is saying “everything will be ok,” but I also think that some people don’t have perspective on the extent of how bad this is. It’s easy to trust the system when you think it’s mostly fair and the rules are upheld. It’s much harder to stay calm once you realize the entire system is designed to crush vulnerable people, and even the minimal laws we do have to protect people are often ignored.

Edited by wisewillow on Jun 18th 2019 at 12:02:48 PM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#282893: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:04:42 PM

[up] I was a LEO for a long time, I know all of that. And I can also tell you that even the most blatantly biased court can only get away with so much. We’re not talking about edge cases and technicalities here, we’re talking about the absolute basics of probable cause. PC for stops is something that’s been litigated extensively in the US, though most people aren’t really aware of how it or their Miranda rights work.

I get that everyone’s on edge, but there’s plenty of stuff to worry about that’s actually happening. I’m not saying everything’s fine, I’m pointing out that worrying about ICE agents conducting citizenship stops on every POC they see as they drive down the street isn’t a particularly useful worry.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 18th 2019 at 12:12:48 PM

They should have sent a poet.
Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#282894: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:05:04 PM

“Give me a lawyer, dawg” doesn’t count because, I shit you not, the court found that wasn’t clear and there’s no such thing as a lawyer dog

Oh wow, happen to have a citation for that one on hand?

[down]I fully believe that it's real, I just want to see the particulars.

Edited by Eschaton on Jun 18th 2019 at 12:12:57 PM

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#282895: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:11:02 PM

An sufficiently openly racist court can and will ignore anything. For example, in the pre-civil rights South, people would often get away with murdering black people even if they were caught red-handed, because the juries were often composed of KKK-members. This is what I call a "Poisoned Soil Problem"-sometimes even if the establishment and the rules are right, an evil runs so deep that the rules are blatantly ignored thanks to society being a flock of wolves.

Having said that, at the federal level, poisoned soil is generally much less of a problem, and I do think it's right to say that just having ICE run around arresting immigrants en masse on a whim would indeed most likely be stopped pretty quickly. If it doesn't, I'd pin it on sheer Refuge in Audacity. To be fair, that's Trump in a nutshell-Trump's something of an Outside-Context Problem to politics due to being much more of a Card-Carrying Villain than people are used to.

@Eschaton: I don't have a citation, but I can confirm that one exists. Not making that up.

Leviticus 19:34
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#282896: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:11:53 PM

The real worry with ICE is going to be when they break the law and Trump hands out a pardon, he’s already used pardons to effectively legalise inhumane conditions for migrants and war crimes against Muslim enemies. What ICE agents can do legally and what Trump will pardon them for doing are two different things.

Now however there’s eventually the possibility of illegal activities by ICE agents begin resisted by other law enforcement groups, who’d have the legal high ground.

Edited by Silasw on Jun 18th 2019 at 7:13:28 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#282897: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:13:11 PM

Indeed. He has, in fact, been caught pre-emptive offering pardons to people for breaking the law to oppress immigrants.

The law will not protect immigrants from Trump.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 18th 2019 at 1:13:54 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Soban Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
#282898: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:19:00 PM

BORGHARDT LAW FIRM: "Lessons from the 'Lawyer Dawg' Case."

There are lessons to be learned from the case of Warren Demesme. You’ve heard about the case? It’s made national news. It’s the “Lawyer, Dawg” case. Or is it “Lawyer Dog”? It is a Louisiana case that recently received national attention because of the concurring opinion written by Justice Scott Crichton. The case, which the Louisiana Supreme Court denied writs on, involved an interrogation where the defendant said, “why don’t you just give me a lawyer dog.” Of course, Demesme might have actually been saying, “why don’t you just give me a lawyer, dawg.” Regardless, the Louisiana Supreme Court allowed the confession made during the interrogation, and Justice Crichton stated that essentially Demesme’s request wasn’t clear enough and was ambiguous. The court’s writ denial and Crichton’s concurring opinion make plain that in the state of Louisiana, “lawyer dog” isn’t good enough to truly invoke that sacrosanct Miranda right to have an attorney present during a custodial interrogation.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#282899: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:21:31 PM

WTF? Nice, let's be prejudiced against dialectic speech, now. Race obviously isn't enough.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#282900: Jun 18th 2019 at 12:38:37 PM

I was a LEO for a long time, I know all of that. And I can also tell you that even the most blatantly biased court can only get away with so much. We’re not talking about edge cases and technicalities here, we’re talking about the absolute basics of probable cause. PC for stops is something that’s been litigated extensively in the US, though most people aren’t really aware of how it or their Miranda rights work.

I get that everyone’s on edge, but there’s plenty of stuff to worry about that’s actually happening. I’m not saying everything’s fine, I’m pointing out that worrying about ICE agents conducting citizenship stops on every POC they see as they drive down the street isn’t a particularly useful worry.

Not to be rude, but law school and working in law enforcement aren’t the same thing. And a judge doesn’t have to be blatantly racist to uphold systemic racism. If an officer pulls a Black person over for a minor traffic violation and claims they smell weed? Courts have held that’s enough to investigate further, even though the cop could have lied. Because the legal presumption is that cops are fair/unbiased despite mountains of data showing otherwise.

[up][up] Thanks for pulling a link.

Edited by wisewillow on Jun 18th 2019 at 12:40:10 PM


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