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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282076: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:48:38 PM

Again, Fox isn't the potential problem here.

Then let me reiterate.

Giving up and just accepting that all news outlets will always screw us no matter what we do is not a plan. It, too, is an act of submission. If we just declare that our narrative can never reach the public, then we might as well stop trying to politic because the press doesn't stop being a factor when we're not talking about impeachment.

Inaction does not create positive change. We didn't take a trifecta in Colorado by just sitting around hoping that fate will deliver us the state. We fought for it, and we need to fight for 2020 every bit as hard.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:49:19 AM

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#282077: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:50:26 PM

And there are other ways to do that besides a throwing a Hail Mary with impeachment and crossing our fingers that the public ends up on our side.

[down]Given everything that's happened in the past three years, I'd say some "cynicism" is justified, no?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:54:13 AM

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#282078: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:52:15 PM

This is why I'm more of a lurker then a poster. The excessive cynicism pisses me off on this thread.

All the impeachment being good or bad stuff doesn't help matters, and its become a soft ban topic on this thread anyhow, yet somehow it still comes back to it in someway anyhow.

Edited by Demongodofchaos2 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:52:34 AM

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
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#282079: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:52:44 PM

You know fighting for 2020 looks like?

Not blowing all our political capital and credibility on something we know is doomed to fail that will follow us straight to November.

You wanna talk about abandoning our moral station or whatever? Falling on our sword to make ourselves feel better and throwing away the election is doing just that.

Oh really when?
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#282080: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:54:15 PM

[up][up][up][up]So how, then does the message reach public ears? If we’re going to send a message through mainstream media, it needs to be one that will be obvious if it’s twisted to the point of conveying the opposite of its intended meaning.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:54:35 AM

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#282081: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:55:36 PM

I ask again: What is achieved by an impeachment process currently guaranteed to fail vs not impeaching him at all.

What pros outweigh the cons for such a move that it's worth doing knowing the outcome?

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#282082: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:55:43 PM

[up][up]Twitter threads seem to be the in thing right now.

[up]The idea is that impeachment will lead to a trial, during which all of Trump nasty deeds will be brought to the forefront before the public. This will make them even more invested in Trump's removal from office, and when the Senate decides not to do that, they will see for themselves how corrupt the Republican Party is and flock to the polls in droves in 2020 to vote them out. While not impeaching him sends the message that Democrats are actually okay with all the crimes he's committing. Or something.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 9:00:11 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282083: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:02:58 PM

Like this.

Here's the thing about an impeachment: it comes with an impeachment trial. This is a months-long endeavor that the press will treat like the rockstar event of the 21st century. For a good two or three months, the public will be glued to their televisions or eagerly googling their news to see what the latest development in the ultra-rare event is.

In front of the eyes of millions of Americans, we lay out the case piece by piece. Every piece of evidence, witness testimonies, the whole shebang. We make a clear and indefensible case against Trump while half the nation watches to find out what's going to happen and then, when we've assured a guilty verdict in the Court of Public Opinion by connecting all of the dots for people, Republicans acquit on a partisan basis.

Cue O.J. Simpson-level public outrage. So long as the public hears our message, Republicans will be forced to choose between protecting Trump or being competitive in 2020. That's not a pleasant place to be in.

This, to me, feels like an infinitely better way of delivering the information to the public than just hoping they had the patience to read a 400-page document.

That part where all the news outlets report what is happening and then, while they're doing that, we connect all the dots between the various pieces of evidence.

For the last two and a half years, the press has reported on bits of evidence piecemeal. A thing here, a thing there, a testimony, a statement. All spread out in bits and pieces that don't work without each other.

We've never had a chance to stand in front of the public and present the complete case as detailed in the Mueller Report, minus Mueller's reluctance to speak ill of the President. We've never had a formal event to put together the entire image. At this point, we're just hoping that the public either a) has the patience to read the Report for themselves or b) can connect their own dots.

How many people actually know what Mike Flynn even did? Or who George Papadopoulos is? Remember Paul Manafort, the guy that did something at some point and then was arrested for something something Ukraine and we guess that connects to Trump sorta?

We've never actually given the public a narrative to compete with Trump's "Total exoneration". We never had the chance to; we've never prosecuted the case, so all we have are myriad pieces of a case hanging in a vacuum and a novel-length package of legalese providing comprehensive instructions on where to put the thread.

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#282084: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:05:24 PM

Now I think you’re giving the media too much credit to act in good faith over what would be a massive ratings bump.

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#282085: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:06:45 PM

All I'm expecting the media to do is be present in the room during the biggest event of the 21st century with cameras.

What I'm putting faith in is the idea that the public are more likely to watch an impeachment hearing than they are to read War and Peace.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 7:07:08 AM

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#282086: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:08:49 PM

Okay, let me ask you this @TobiasDrake

Say all that happens, and the public sees exactly what Trump has been up to since and before his presidency, with clear-cut evidence and airtight testimonies, the whole nine.

What makes you so certain that, when the Senate votes not to impeach Trump, at the very least, a significant part of the general public will not shoulder the blame on Democrats for being "ineffectual" or some similar adjective?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 9:09:02 AM

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#282087: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:10:01 PM

I appear to be several days late for this, but Caitlyn Jenner is such a jerkass.

As for the current topic, Twitter is both a blessing and a curse. A blessing, as it allows for the grassroots to talk and for communities to form. A curse in that unverified and outright false information can camouflage right in and can be largely indistinguishable from truth at times.

I'd recommend not using CNN, MSNBC, et al, but rather use sites like Politico, the Atlantic, Buzzfeed, or the BBC. I'd be careful, though, as mainstream news is not immune to publishing false information (the NYT, Atlantic, Guardian, etc have all at various times posted Transphobic garbage for an example I'm familiar with).

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
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#282088: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:12:54 PM

As impeachment is occupying more and more of the news, we cannot and will not ban this topic outright.

However, we would ask that this topic be treated more with factual updates. Where this thread has repeatedly gotten in issue is quarreling over the merits of impeachment or not. The same pieces are said over and over again, with little to no movement. It has served little but to flare up tempers.

TLDR: news about impeachment is free game; pros/cons of it are not.

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
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#282089: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:12:59 PM

[up][up]I don’t think you have to worry about any of us buying into harmful narratives. The problem I’m concerned with is getting through to the lowest common denominator.

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 3rd 2019 at 9:13:16 AM

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#282090: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:15:32 PM

EDIT: Posted before I saw the mod post.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 7:16:42 AM

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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#282091: Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:24:07 PM

[up][up][up]On that note

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2019/06/03/day-865/

    Day 865: Presidential obstruction and other crimes 
1/ Before even landing in England for his first official state visit to the U.K., Trump tweeted that the mayor of London was a "stone cold loser" for being "foolishly 'nasty'" to him. Sadiq Khan wrote an op-ed prior to the visit, calling Trump "one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat" and suggested that the state visit be rescinded because Trump's views are "incompatible with British values." After landing, Trump met with Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles at Buckingham Palace and later tweeted that the trip was "going really well." (New York Times / Washington Post / CNN / Politico / NBC News / The Guardian)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/donald-trump-arrives-britain-state-visit-n1013041https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/donald-trump-arrives-britain-state-visit-n1013041

Ahead of his three-day state visit, Trump suggested that the U.K. should "walk away" from Brexit talks if the European Union does not give it what it wants. Trump criticized the $50 billion bill the U.K. must pay as part of the Brexit deal, saying he "wouldn't pay" it because "it's a tremendous number." Trump later called on the U.K. to throw off the "shackles" of EU and strike a free-trade deal with the U.S. (Vox / CNN / Bloomberg)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/02/politics/trump-sunday-times-interview-brexit-grb-intl/index.html

2/ Trump called for a boycott of AT&T in order to force "big changes" at CNN, which is owned by the telecommunications giant. Trump tweeted for AT&T "do something" about CNN, because the network "is the primary source of news available from the U.S." in the U.K. and – he claims – its coverage of his administration is "unfair." (Axios / CNBC / Politico / Washington Post)

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/03/trump-calls-for-a-boycott-of-att-to-force-big-changes-at-cnn.html

3/ The House Judiciary Committee announced a "series of hearings" related to Robert Mueller's report, "Presidential Obstruction and Other Crimes." The first hearing is scheduled for June 10th and will focus on Trump's "most overt acts of obstruction" with John Dean, a key figure in the Watergate scandal, as one of the witnesses. Mueller – for now – is not scheduled to appear. (New York Times / NBC News / Washington Post / The Hill / CNBC / Politico)

https://thehill.com/policy/national-security/446691-judiciary-democrats-announce-a-series-of-public-hearings-on-mueller

Research study: Russian Twitter trolls attempted to fuel the anti-vaccination debate in the U.S. According to the study from George Washington University, "sophisticated" bots, mimicking previous Russian troll efforts, shared opinions from both sides of the anti-vaxxer debate. (CBS News)

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-vax-movement-russian-trolls-fueled-anti-vaccination-debate-in-us-by-spreading-misinformation-twitter-study/

4/ The Justice Department refused to turn over transcripts of recorded conversations between Michael Flynn and Russian officials, including those with then-Russian Ambassador Sergey Kislyak, despite a court order. The transcripts between Flynn and Kislyak were obtained from an FBI wiretap and are expected to show that in December 2016 they talked about sanctions that the Obama administration had just imposed on Russia. Prosecutors also failed to release unredacted portions of the Mueller report related to Flynn that the judge ordered to be made public. The Justice Department, however, did release transcripts of a voice mail from Trump's attorney John Dowd to Flynn's attorney, Rob Kelner, about Flynn's discussions with Mueller just before Flynn pleaded guilty and agreed to cooperate in Mueller's investigation. (Washington Post / New York Times / CNN / Axios)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/31/politics/michael-flynn-john-dowd-voicemail/index.html

Jared Kushner doesn't know if he'd call the FBI if he received an email like the one before the Trump Tower meeting, which had the subject line: "Re: Russia - Clinton - private and confidential." (Axios / Washington Post)

https://www.axios.com/jared-kushner-trump-tower-meeting-fbi-axios-on-hbo-97b8f3d8-9c72-4a57-840d-75e1e22e6611.html

5/ A witness in Mueller's investigation was charged with transporting child pornography last year. George Nader operated as a liaison between Trump's supporters, Middle East leaders, and Russians interested in making contact with the incoming administration in early 2017. Nader helped arrange the Seychelles meeting in January 2017 between Erik Prince and a Russian official close to Putin. Nader was arrested today at John F. Kennedy International Airport in New York. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/figure-linked-to-trump-transition-charged-with-transporting-child-pornography/2019/06/03/caee8aca-862a-11e9-98c1-e945ae5db8fb_story.html

📌 Day 441: A cooperating witness in Robert Mueller's investigation may have information linking the United Arab Emirates to Russia. George Nader has received at least partial immunity for his cooperation. Nader's international connections helped him arrange several meetings that have drawn the attention of the special counsel, including a meeting in the Seychelles between Kirill Dmitriev, the manager of a state-run Russian investment fund, and a Trump adviser days before Trump took office. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/us/politics/george-nader-russia-uae-special-counsel-investigation.html

📌 Day 483: Mueller's team is examining a series of meetings that took place in the Seychelles, which have been characterized as an attempt by the U.S. to set up a backchannel with Russia. A Russian plane, owned by Andrei Skoch, a Russian billionaire and deputy in the Russian State Duma, the country's legislative body, flew into the Seychelles a day prior to the 2017 meeting. (NJ.com)

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2018/05/new_details_emerge_on_russian_aircraft_in_seychell.html

poll/ 41% of Americans feel Trump should be impeached and removed from office compared to 54% who are against impeachment. Trump's approval rating, meanwhile, stands at 43% with 52% disapproving of the President. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/02/politics/trump-impeachment-mueller-testify-cnn-poll/index.html

    Notables 
The House Oversight and Reform Committee is moving to hold Attorney General William Barr and Commerce Secretary Wilbur Ross in contempt for refusing to comply with a subpoena for information about efforts to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census. Chairman Elijah Cummings said he would consider postponing the contempt votes if Barr and Ross turn over the requested documents by Thursday. (Politico)

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/03/house-dems-to-hold-barr-ross-in-contempt-over-census-question-1352387

A new State Department policy requires visa applicants submit information about any social media accounts used in the past five years. Account information could provide the government with access to photos, locations, dates of birth, and other personal data commonly shared on social media. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/02/us/us-visa-application-social-media.html

Trump's economic advisor will depart the White House "shortly." Kevin Hassett denied that his pending departure was not related to Trump's tariff threats on China and Mexico. Hassett, however, said that the chance of Trump hitting the 3% growth target this year is less certain due to the trade war and a ballooning budget deficit. He will leave at the end of this month. (Politico / CNBC / Bloomberg / Reuters)

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-hassett-idUSKCN1T4053

Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao has "repeatedly used her connections and celebrity status in China to boost the profile" of her family's shipping company, Foremost Group, which benefits from industrial policies in China. Chao has no official affiliation or stake in her family's company, but she and her husband, Mitch McConnell, have received millions of dollars in gifts from her father, who ran the company until last year. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/02/us/politics/elaine-chao-china.html

The Trump administration considered imposing tariffs on imports from Australia last week, but decided against the move after opposition from military and State Department officials. Some of Trump's top advisers urged him to impose the tariffs in response to a surge of Australian aluminum coming into American markets over the last year. But DOD and State Department officials warned that the move would alienate a top ally. (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/02/business/trump-australia-tariffs.html

The Pentagon told the White House to stop politicizing the military after the Trump administration ordered the Navy to hide the USS John S. McCain during Trump's visit to Japan. The Navy confirmed that the White House made the request "to minimize the visibility of" the ship. (Associated Press / NBC News)

https://apnews.com/3dba0b327e8e45e5b9589db4bb735505


Separate from the above:

GOP lawmakers discuss vote to block Trump’s new tariffs on Mexico, in what would be a dramatic act of defiance – Republican aren’t eager for a fight with Trump. But some feel they might have to take action, as consensus grows that the new tariffs would amount to a tax increase on American businesses and consumers.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/citing-mexico-tariffs-threat-lawmakers-say-n-american-trade-deal-is-in-peril/2019/06/03/73c4eaac-863c-11e9-a491-25df61c78dc4_story.html

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 11:43:07 AM

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#282092: Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:59:05 PM

Pelosi has nothing to do with it. This hearing is being held by the House Judiciary Committee, chaired by Jerry Nadler.

Is there a known rift between Pelosi and Nadler? Because my understanding has been that Pelosi has near total control over her caucus, which says to me that this is either a rare act of rebellion or a good cop bad cop routine.

It’s not a bad strategy, get a narrative going that Dems are ineffective and unwilling to do anything, then do stuff, have it look like Pelosi was dragged into impeachment by a rising tribe of public opinion rather than a partisan desire for power.

I believe that support for impeachment is trending up by the way.

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#282093: Jun 4th 2019 at 1:02:57 AM

I don't think a year and a half is really enough time to worry about impeachment that will not go anywhere and I support it. However, it's important to show all of Trump's crimes and bring them to the public. Also, arrest his cronies.

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Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#282094: Jun 4th 2019 at 4:20:26 AM

we really do need do deal with the threat of DINOs

What with, a Strongly Worded Letter? This isn't the UK, we can't just threaten to withdraw the whip, particularly in the case of a Blue Dog who's elected in Republican territory on a platform of being moderate. Primarying a popular Blue Dog is just handing their seat over to a Republican with some nice gift wrap.

Moderate Democrats are people who we need to (gasp) compromise with, because in a sane world, these people would be the Republican Party. Just because they believe in the rule of law and sanity does not mean that they're going to agree with someone like Warren on everything.

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#282095: Jun 4th 2019 at 4:30:17 AM

[up]Well, the discussion has moved past that point, but I’ve accepted that no real change for good is going to happen anyway with the current political environment. All we can do is prevent things from getting worse for now.

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#282096: Jun 4th 2019 at 7:12:25 AM

However, it's important to show all of Trump's crimes and bring them to the public.

This, exactly. We need to bring Trump's crimes to the public in a way that they'll tune in and pay attention to. We could have an eight-hour press conference where Nancy Pelosi stands in front of a podium and dryly reads the Mueller Report, but people will skip that. It's not exciting. It's not interesting. It's just data.

People don't want data. The number one question I keep being asked after being rudely interrupted while talking about the Report is: what happens next? What's the next action? What are Democrats going to do with this? What arrests are going to be made? Will they impeach? Will they litigate? What are they doing?

At the end of the day, people don't want data. They want drama. They want to stand around a water cooler going, "Did you see what happened last night?! Can you believe they did that?! Wow!" Before they make room in their busy lives to care about something, they first need to know that something is happening that's worth caring about.

If we want them to care about the Report, we need to give the public drama. They need suspense. Action. Intrigue. Something that makes "Washington politicked again today" into the new season of Game of Thrones. Something all their colleagues will be talking about tomorrow, and that they therefore feel like they need to pay attention and form real opinions on it.

We need to capture the headlines in a way that gives newspapers the rockstar ratings they crave and glues the whole nation to their seats as they eagerly anticipate the next twist and turn. For two years, we had the Mueller Investigation doing exactly that but it's over.

With the Report behind us, the general assumption is that the people who need to know what happened now know and unless further developments arise, that's that. Joe Q. Public doesn't need to read the report or know what's in it if it no longer impacts his life. It's all about show business. If we want people to pay attention, then we need to do something worth watching.

Republicans get this. This is why Trump and Barr are launching their counterinvestigation. They want to command the narrative for the next two years. The SHOCKING NEW PLOT TWIST is that Bob Mueller was Evil All Along! THE REAL BAD GUYS were the Democrats who started it! AHHHHH SO EXCITING.

That's what Trump wants to happen on the "next season" of Mueller Report. If we let him, that's going to be the narrative people are tuning into as we move into 2020. And the press will eat it up because they'll take anything that sounds like an exciting story, whether it's the Democrats or Republicans serving it up.

So, with this in mind, I ask you: what happens next? What can we do that's more exciting than "Shocking Swerve! The Mueller team were the bad guys this whole time!" What will capture Americans' interest and give us a platform on which to present the facts of the case in a way they'll actually want to listen to?

The press is not our enemy. They're a neutral force. One way or another, they're just chasing ratings. If we want them working for us instead of against us, we should be chasing ratings too. After all, ratings means people are actually watching what we're putting out into the infosphere. The press and the public want drama, so let's give them drama.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 4th 2019 at 8:14:50 AM

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#282097: Jun 4th 2019 at 7:50:20 AM

...Didn't the mods already tell us we shouldn't bring up impeachment unless there is actual news on it?

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Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#282098: Jun 4th 2019 at 7:54:37 AM

Well, what is news is that now Republicans start to talk about impeachment….the Democrats better hurry up, because otherwise the Republicans will look like the principled ones and the Democrats as the cowards who didn't do what had to be done. If the Senate stops the process at least THAT particularly narrative will be off the table.

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Oh, bother.
#282099: Jun 4th 2019 at 7:56:37 AM

[up]The GOP Senators have already stated they would oppose impeachment.

Where are you getting the idea that Republicans want to impeach?

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#282100: Jun 4th 2019 at 8:09:05 AM

It was only one Republican, but yes. Representative Justin Amash dominated the news cycle by supporting impeachment. As a Republican speaking against the Republican party line, the press couldn't stop talking about him for a few days. A defector is hot news; reporters love nothing more than sticking a mic in front of someone who is saying "My party is wrong".

In the eyes of the news media, a defector's opinion is controversial, and therefore weighs more than someone whose opinion is exactly what you'd expect the party line to be. Even if they're saying the same f*cking thing.

Susan Collins became a household name for defending the ACA on the same grounds. The entire Democratic party defended the ACA, but it was Susan Collins and the other Republican defectors whose names were celebrated in the headlines for weeks. Defectors are exciting news, even if they vote the other way 99% of the time.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 4th 2019 at 9:10:23 AM

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