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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282051: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:27:07 PM

People argue that and basically it just infuriates some voters (like me) more. You impeach him because he's a criminal. Not because you're afraid of a few votes being lost (which is pandering to the Trump supporters).

It's also Insane Troll Logic that exposing Trump's crimes will make him MORE popular.

People point out Clinton got more popular because of it but that's because Clinton's charges were ridiculous.

That's pretty much my position on it too.

I have full confidence that if we make it to 2020 without a significant publicized event coming out of the Mueller Investigation, the narrative will be that the entire thing was a manufactured scandal all along.

The Republican position is already that the report was a complete and total exoneration. It wasn't and anyone who actually understands what Mueller means when he says he cannot exonerate Trump knows it, but to the general public? They think that if we don't act, then it means Mueller didn't find anything to act on after all.

Republicans say Mueller exonerated Trump. Democrats say Mueller didn't. Mueller, meanwhile, refuses to definitively state that Trump committed a crime because he says only Congress can prosecute Trump. The ball's in the House's court now; Mueller has charged them with prosecuting Trump if there is anything prosecutorial in his findings.

Congress's decision to act or to not act will determine whether the investigation is remembered as Watergate or Witch Hunt.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 4:27:42 AM

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#282052: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:31:24 PM

Nah it’s the media narrative that will determine that, there is a reason possibility that if the Dems act CNN and the New York Times scream “Witch Hunt, Trump was Right all along, it’s a coup!”

Also here’s the real sad truth, people don’t care, the public don’t care about Russia, it’s one of the bottom issues for people according to polls.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#282053: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:41:56 PM

~Shiny Cotton Candy

Question: Do you consider the "Blue Dog" Democrats to be DINOs?

Reason I ask is that the way I understand it, pragmatically DINO or not, we need the Blue Dogs where they are. They may vote with the Republicans some of the time, but that's loads better than the most likely alternative in places the Blue Dogs hold office: Someone who will vote with Republicans all of the time.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#282054: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:43:37 PM

The pro-impeachment crowd seem to be operating on the incredibly optimistic assumption that the public will understand the true motive behind impeaching Trump; to have a thorough investigation done on him so that the public gets the full extent of all the crimes he has committed.

And they won't. They'll see it as Democrats attempting to remove Trump from office. And when the Senate decides not to impeach him, they won't see a corrupt and comprised party bending over backwards to protect a criminal; they'll see yet another failed endeavor by Democrats. And that's gonna burden us all the way into 2020.

Because here's the thing. The public never remembers the Dems' successes (and if they do, they'll credit some outside forced unrelated to them). But they sure remember their failures. And sometimes they'll even twist their successes into failures. Democrats, by and large, are already seen as ineffectual to the public; we do not need a (in their eyes) failed impeachment to vindicate them even further. And despite 2018 I am not confident that people will turn out to vote Democrat in 2020 despite themselves rather than stay home out of demoralization.

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#282055: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:52:48 PM

Sorry, I worded my post poorly. The way I see it, there are 3 parties in the US, not two. The problem is, two of those parties share a name due to the first-past-the-post system not allowing any more than 2 major parties. For the most part there’s no conflict between the two democratic parties, and when there is, the issue is usually not one decided by the split between the two anyway. The problem I have is that there is the occasional compromise drawn up, and I suspect the compromises are drawn up to cater to those moderate democrats, such as the blue dogs. Right now I can’t with certainly say that we have DINOs in office, but I must admit, the ex-senator from my state has left me probably unfairly biased against moderate democrats.

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#282056: Jun 3rd 2019 at 4:05:18 PM

Speak of the devil... We’ve got an announcement.

We’ve got public hearing specifically about Trump’s obstruction scheduled for the 10th of June.

If this turns out to be some 5D chess strategy by Pelosi to get the press to call Dems weak for not acting on obstruction then swing to acting on obstruction so the narrative is “Dems finally do something” rather than “Dems attempt to remove trump in coup” than I will be very impressed.

It just comes down to what the Dems do when Trump obstructs their obstruction investigation.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282057: Jun 3rd 2019 at 4:26:33 PM

Pelosi has nothing to do with it. This hearing is being held by the House Judiciary Committee, chaired by Jerry Nadler. Nadler's taken a hardline stance against Trump and his obstruction. His committee passed the contempt charges against Barr that promptly died when they landed on Pelosi's desk for full House vote. Nadler has also come out in favor of impeachment.

Nadler's bringing the kind of leadership we need right now by being unafraid to take the leap and fight Trump. The problem is that Pelosi has veto power over everything he does and she's already made up her mind on a complacent illusion-of-resistance strategy.

The way I see it, in 2020, Trump is going to say this: "If I did anything criminal, they would have done something. They didn't have a case! And they knew they didn't have a case, which is why they never even tried."

We don't have an answer to that. We can say that Mitch wouldn't convict, but it's a weak argument when we already decided we didn't have a case strong enough to bring before the Senate in the first place. Right now, it's Nancy Pelosi who is exonerating Trump through inaction rather than Mitch McConnell exonerating him through cronyism. And since Pelosi is his political adversary, it's a much stronger statement for her to declare that we don't even have a case worth presenting in the first place.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:27:06 AM

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
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#282058: Jun 3rd 2019 at 4:59:50 PM

We cannot afford to give every news outlet the headline "Trump beats partisan impeachment attempt" to air 24/7 and let him mention that at every single rally.

The majority of America is not on our side and the only people who will see it as a doomed moral victory are the ones who are already against Trump anyway.

Everyone else will see it as another day of both sides being the same or general partisan mudslinging.

Edited by LeGarcon on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:01:26 AM

Oh really when?
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#282059: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:01:52 PM

Honest question: What is achieved by an impeachment process currently guaranteed to fail vs not impeaching him at all.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282060: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:02:04 PM

Is it really so much worse than "Mueller Report finds nothing impeachable. Complete exoneration! Democrats refuse to bring unwinnable case over crimes never committed."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:03:17 AM

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#282061: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:02:49 PM

Yes, it really is

Oh really when?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282062: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:04:13 PM

Right now, it just looks like we were wasting America's time for the last two years. Trump says he was completely exonerated and we are doing nothing that challenges that message.

Is it better to make an arrest but let the suspect escape on a technicality after months of publicized hearings over his crimes? Or to signal to the public that there were never any crimes worth publicizing in the first place after years and years of investigating?

We already look like partisan hacks for ever investigating the Russia thing to begin with. We can't turn around and just let the investigation die without affirming to the public what Trump's been saying all along: it was just a Witch Hunt and nothing more.

It should be Mitch McConnell and Senate Republicans' fault that Trump escapes prosecution. Right now, the fault lies with Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats who, by inaction, are telling America that Trump never did anything worth acting on. For a Republican President, exoneration by Democrats is a much stronger statement than acquittal by Republicans.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:07:37 AM

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#282063: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:17:21 PM

For a Republican President, exoneration by Democrats is a much stronger statement than acquittal by Republicans.

Will the people who matter even hear a difference in those statements?

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#282064: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:20:35 PM

Is it better to make an arrest but let the suspect escape on a technicality after months of publicized hearings over his crimes? Or to signal to the public that there were never any crimes worth publicizing in the first place after years and years of investigating?

Is it better for Democrats to look utterly useless for trying and failing to bring down someone who is so obviously guilty? Cuz that's what that first one's gonna look like.

And calling Pelosi "complacent"... what was that term we came up with? Disasturbating?

It should be Mitch Mc Connell and Senate Republicans' fault that Trump escapes prosecution. Right now, the fault lies with Nancy Pelosi and the House Democrats who, by inaction, are telling America that Trump never did anything worth acting on.

Even if it was, the public, for the most part, will not see it this way. Again, you're speaking from the assumption that the general voting crowd is far savvier and more politically informed than they actually are.

[up]Not likely, no.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:23:06 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282065: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:31:01 PM

Is it better for Democrats to look utterly useless for trying and failing to bring down someone who is so obviously guilty? Cuz that's what that first one's gonna look like.

And calling Pelosi "complacent"... what was that term we came up with? Disasturbating?

The former.

Here's the thing about an impeachment: it comes with an impeachment trial. This is a months-long endeavor that the press will treat like the rockstar event of the 21st century. For a good two or three months, the public will be glued to their televisions or eagerly googling their news to see what the latest development in the ultra-rare event is.

In front of the eyes of millions of Americans, we lay out the case piece by piece. Every piece of evidence, witness testimonies, the whole shebang. We make a clear and indefensible case against Trump while half the nation watches to find out what's going to happen and then, when we've assured a guilty verdict in the Court of Public Opinion by connecting all of the dots for people, Republicans acquit on a partisan basis.

Cue O.J. Simpson-level public outrage. So long as the public hears our message, Republicans will be forced to choose between protecting Trump or being competitive in 2020. That's not a pleasant place to be in.

This, to me, feels like an infinitely better way of delivering the information to the public than just hoping they had the patience to read a 400-page document.

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#282066: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:32:56 PM

You're banking on the general public having a complete turnaround against the narrative the single largest news conglomerate in the country, who controls most local stations I might add, will be pushing.

We don't need to give Trump another win.

Oh really when?
ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#282067: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:33:16 PM

[up][up]You have way more faith in the American population than I do.

And, of course, [nja]

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:34:01 AM

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
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#282068: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:35:42 PM

[up][up][up]And again, you're assuming that the public will unanimously lay the blame on Republicans when they inevitably exonerate him, instead of splitting the difference between them and Democrats, which is usually what happens.

We all know how deeply entrenched bothsidesism is in American political discourse. Where is this massive trust in the general voting bloc coming from?

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:37:53 AM

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TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282069: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:38:04 PM

You're banking on the general public having a complete turnaround against the narrative the single largest news conglomerate in the country, who controls most local stations I might add, will be pushing.

We don't need to give Trump another win.

FOX News is going to exist no matter what we do. We can either push back against their narrative with our own or we can give up and just surrender to propaganda's absolution.

I'm banking on the idea that the people will always pay more attention to an impeachment trial than to a document. I'd rather see Sean Spicer desperately flailing to spin the latest development in the hearing than see him confidently reasserting that the Witch Hunt is dead for the umpteenth time.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:39:00 AM

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LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#282070: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:40:19 PM

At this point I feel like a stronger point would be that the Democrats should make it clear they aren't going through with impeachment because regardless of the evidence the Republicans wouldn't convict, not that they should try what we all agree would be a purely symbolic gesture that is sure to fail.

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I get the distinct impression that a lot of the same people strongly for impeachment are also the ones often going on about how they're tired of symbolism for the sake of it (or have said things to that effect).

Edited by LSBK on Jun 3rd 2019 at 7:47:40 AM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#282071: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:41:02 PM

[up][up]It's not even Fox that's the problem. It's CNN and other "left-wing" outlets that will throw Dems under the bus if they think it'll net them better ratings.

[up]I know I am. "Symbolic" action that ultimately results in zero consequences for Republicans doesn't mean a damn thing.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:43:17 AM

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ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#282072: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:41:55 PM

[up][up][up]We’d still need at least one reasonable media station that reaches the people on the fence. The stations like MSNBC that deliver anything close to the message we need aren’t going to hit the ears of people not already on our side.

Dangit, that’s twice now. [nja]

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:42:23 AM

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LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#282073: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:43:06 PM

We have no way of controlling the narrative so we have no way of setting ourselves up as the doomed moral victor in the eyes of the public.

Oh really when?
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
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#282074: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:43:07 PM

Remember that time when Sean Spicer's own guests started attacking him on his own show for failing to disclose his conflict of interest regarding Michael Cohen?

That is what we need more of. The strength of the narrative surrounding the investigation overpowered Spicer's ability to bullshit. Republican propaganda is not unbeatable. If we accept that FOX News is an insurmountable foe, then we might as well just surrender the nation 'cause they ain't going anywhere.

Waiting for FOX News to not be a factor is not a plan. It is an act of submission.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:44:16 AM

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PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#282075: Jun 3rd 2019 at 5:44:46 PM

Again, Fox isn't the potential problem here.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:45:20 AM

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