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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282026: Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:43:32 AM

That's a weird conclusion.

How?

Any time period in which there are mass deregulation results in corporations doing what they do best, maximizing profit and passing off costs onto society.

So yes, a corporation promising to "do no evil" is like a wolf promising not to eat meat. You know they're going to do it anyway if given a chance.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#282027: Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:46:46 AM

To be fair, "do no harm" is not necessarily leftist. In fact, ultra-capitalistic ideologies tend to use that principle as their basis and ramp it Up To Eleven. These ideologies tend to believe you don't have to help anyone, so long as you don't actively hurt anyone.

Also, the Hippocratic Oath is actually not as common as most people think and its principles would usually be seen as pretty backwards in today's world. In fact, IIRC the Do No Harm principle basically means things like "I won't preform surgery to save my patient, because that would be harming them"

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282028: Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:50:16 AM

Oh certainly, I don't think do no harm is particularly leftist.

Rather it's just that corporations can never faithfully adhere to it, their purpose is simply incompatible.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#282029: Jun 3rd 2019 at 10:53:17 AM

Publish google results that don’t reflect well on him and his buddies, he’s been moaning about it for ages.

Quite.

Remember that Trump's entire bid for Presidency began because Obama made fun of him once.

There is no bottom line of pettiness for this man. I 100% believe that he'd try to dismantle Google because their search results don't sing his praises. And, as noted, Conservatives have been whining about this exact thing for months.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 11:53:34 AM

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CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#282030: Jun 3rd 2019 at 11:00:27 AM

I think it says everything about our current administration that saying, "Do not do evil" as Leftist is taken as a serious statement.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282031: Jun 3rd 2019 at 11:02:58 AM

Quite.

Though it's not even that new a thing, the Republicans had to literally push for a rebranding of their ideology as "Compassionate Conservatism". Which is kind of hilarious, no one would believe a Conservative is compassionate unless they say it tongue

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#282032: Jun 3rd 2019 at 12:35:24 PM

This guy. This guy gets me.

Democrats need to be as relentless in pursuit of their goals as Republicans are. Republicans came to win and they will fight tooth and nail to get their awful, awful policy agendas passed. Democrats seem to just hold out hope that wisdom will eventually prevail if we just wait long enough.

Democrats need to realize that Trump didn't invent Republican horribleness and every victory he claims in the face of Democratic inaction only establishes that his tactics work and that all Republicans should use them. If we don't take a stand against this behavior, it will continue long after he's gone from office.

And I don't just mean calling Trump a meany-pants in press interviews.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:37:44 PM

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Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#282033: Jun 3rd 2019 at 12:56:17 PM

excuse me,but whenever I hear that the Democrats need to be more x because the Republicans are y I don't take them seriously,the democrats don't need to be as ruthless as the Republicans (that comes with it's problems) they just need to show voters they're alternative to the Republicans no matter how much bothsideism is shouted by the other party

> Democrats seem to just hold out hope that wisdom will eventually prevail if we just wait long enough.

Its not about waiting its about making the right move,rash decisions cost

Edited by Ultimatum on Jun 3rd 2019 at 8:01:38 AM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#282034: Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:40:27 PM

Bit of interesting food for thought, but at my cousin's graduation party this past weekend, I chatted with a woman who works in the USDA and is a registered Republican - her perspective was that if the Democrats don't impeach, Trump would win, since it'd come across as all walk, no talk. And she fucking hates Trump, especially because of the balls-out push for deregulating everything, what with her being an employee in one of the regulatory agencies and thereby understanding why those regulations exist.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282035: Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:48:49 PM

Meh, you could just as easily argue that failing would have just as much chance of helping him.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#282036: Jun 3rd 2019 at 1:54:24 PM

People argue that and basically it just infuriates some voters (like me) more. You impeach him because he's a criminal. Not because you're afraid of a few votes being lost (which is pandering to the Trump supporters).

It's also Insane Troll Logic that exposing Trump's crimes will make him MORE popular.

People point out Clinton got more popular because of it but that's because Clinton's charges were ridiculous.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282037: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:00:34 PM

People argue that and basically it just infuriates some voters (like me) more. You impeach him because he's a criminal. Not because you're afraid of a few votes being lost (which is pandering to the Trump supporters).

Do you know what infuriates me?

The people who downplay the massive human cost of losing an election.

So you think it's worth the risk? Fine, I can respect that. But don't you dare reduce it to "a few votes", if you aren't willing to acknowledge what's possibly at risk then you aren't being reasonable and should be opposed at every opportunity.

It's also Insane Troll Logic that exposing Trump's crimes will make him MORE popular.

This presumes that "exposing Trump's crimes" is the only possibility.

What's just as possible is that it will turn into a partisan slap fight that the media will do what it normally does and try to give #bothsides an opportunity to argue. Which coupled with the inevitable failure could result in people staying home.

Your refusal to engage with positions of others is growing tiresome, it's not Insane Troll Logic.

People point out Clinton got more popular because of it but that's because Clinton's charges were ridiculous.

And the public is often deeply ignorant. If they see impeachment fail (which it will) and they're surrounded by media who muddy waters (which is plausible) then there could be a backlash.

People don't need to vote for Trump, they can just become tired of people being 'partisan' and decide to stay home.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#282038: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:03:49 PM

What Republicans have over Democrats is that it’s much, much easier to appeal to both the conscious and subconscious bigotry of a lot of people than win them over with wisdom and sound policy. A lot of people kneejerk a reaction or believe exactly what they’re told by someone who agrees with them or projects an aura of authority.

Republican politics and policies don’t have to be logical or well-founded, they just need to get enough bigots angry, jealous or scared enough of the Other getting or keeping rights the majority have had from the jump. You’ve got nonsense like “The Great Replacement” and the “Lost Cause” being trotted out by white nationalists and miscellaneous bigots the country over, so it’s hardly surprising.

It’s infinitely harder to argue and win from a humanistic position when a large portion of the population isn’t interested in the logic of humanism and just straight up doesn’t want to give anything but scraps to people that aren’t like them, and their politicians are just as morally bankrupt as to go through any length to get what they want.

I would argue that “ruthless” is maybe the wrong term, because it implies as much corruption and assholery that the Republicans have gotten up to, but I agree that Democrats’ commitment to “meet in the middle” and “compromise” views with people who couldn’t give less of a shit about either of those and just want to see rights stripped from those they hate has been sabotaging their chances of getting things done, and they need to stop caring about what old, decrepit white bigots think and start moving forward with policies that’ll help minorities regardless of whether Republicans whine about them or not. It certainly works for the GOP.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:05:09 AM

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M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#282039: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:07:36 PM

Except the Democratic Party for the most part has been doing this when it comes to minority rights and what not.

The problem is that there is only so much they can do with just the House.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#282040: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:10:09 PM

[up] Democrats had full control of both houses under Obama, and it was still a commitment to compromise and meeting in the middle that blocked universal healthcare.

It’s gotten harder since Dems lost the House, but even in times with both houses under Dem control, it was compromise with the party that doesnt give a shit about compromise that defeated them.

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#282041: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:12:01 PM

That was then. I am talking about now.

Disgusted, but not surprised
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#282042: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:12:59 PM

[up] I’m talking about a recurring issue with the party. If Dems didnt do it when they had the power of both houses in their hands, there’s a larger issue than just not having the House.

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282043: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:13:16 PM

Democrats had full control of both houses under Obama, and it was still a commitment to compromise and meeting in the middle that blocked universal healthcare.

They couldn't even get a public option, and you think universal healthcare was possible?

No, Obama had a problem with pursuing compromise for too long but it's blatant revisionism to suggest that's what stopped the ACA from being proper universal healthcare.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#282044: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:23:36 PM

Yeah. Democrats would have had to scrap the filibuster to get even a public option though.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ILikeRobots Aspirant Creativity Wizard from the worlds of my imagination Since: Aug, 2016 Relationship Status: You cannot grasp the true form
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
#282045: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:24:30 PM

[up] x2 There are always multiple factors involved in any scenario, but that doesn’t change the fact that Democrat over-commitment to compromising with the opponent who is vehemently opposed to compromise and seeks to diminish the rights of those they dislike has repeatedly handicapped Democratic policy advancement and caused issues for said people that fit in the “GOP doesn’t like” category.

Commitment to compromise was one of the factors that hindered universal health care even if it wasn’t the only factor.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:24:52 AM

Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#282046: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:36:31 PM

Didn't they only have both houses for like, two years?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#282047: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:52:15 PM

There are always multiple factors involved in any scenario, but that doesn’t change the fact that Democrat over-commitment to compromising with the opponent who is vehemently opposed to compromise and seeks to diminish the rights of those they dislike has repeatedly handicapped Democratic policy advancement and caused issues for said people that fit in the “GOP doesn’t like” category.

False.

Lieberman promised to stop the ACA if it included a public option, compared to that over-committing to compromise is nothing.

It's disingenuous in the extreme to claim that compromise stopped us getting universal healthcare. It didn't. What stopped us was Joe Lieberman.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:52:31 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#282048: Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:57:03 PM

For the record: The House ACA bill did have a public option. Pelosi had to convince a lot of representatives to commit political suicide to get that through.

It was in the Senate where it had to be taken out because Joe Lieberman (Democrat-turned-Independent who still caucused with the Democrats) refused to support it, and getting his vote was the only way we could overcome a filibuster. That was the compromise that ultimately got the ACA passed.

Darn it. Here I was ready to drag Lieberman through the mud, but noooooooooo, Spartan had to be all [nja]. I hope you're happy!

Edited by Parable on Jun 3rd 2019 at 2:58:26 AM

ShinyCottonCandy Everyone's friend Malamar from Lumiose City (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Everyone's friend Malamar
#282049: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:03:49 PM

I feel like this is all I talk about in this thread, but we really do need do deal with the threat of DINOs (or in Lieberman’s case, ally-of-dems-in-name-only) almost as much as we need to overcome republicans. Most of these compromises center on a small number of democrats who flip to the republicans on a given issue, forcing the rest of the party to give in or not get the bill passed at all. A more recent case is Senator Sinema, on the issue of net neutrality (though that one isn’t getting through even if the party was unified, but I think my point still stands.)

Edited by ShinyCottonCandy on Jun 3rd 2019 at 6:04:38 AM

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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#282050: Jun 3rd 2019 at 3:25:00 PM

On the biggest issues the more right wing democrats seem to know how to fall in line, Manchin and Tester have been solid of the ACA, with Sinema and net neutrality I’d ask if her voted made a difference, in okay with red state democrats voting for shitty things if they will pass anyway.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

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