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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#281826: May 30th 2019 at 12:20:51 AM

Capitalism is very much a mixed bag. As is globalization, which tends to go hand in hand with it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oruka Since: Dec, 2018
#281827: May 30th 2019 at 12:23:33 AM

In short, the Free Market works well with things for which demand is elastic (as long as you make sure to keep strong anti-trust laws up). Inelastic demand leads to abuse.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#281828: May 30th 2019 at 1:04:04 AM

The problem with laissez-faire is that it isn't possible. Small-l libertarian David Brin convinced me of that - the rich are going to cheat and manipulate the levers of government and either employ government-backed coercive power to protect their economic interests or funnel tax dollars into their own pockets, or simply hire mercenaries that the government is unable to effectively police. Alternately, if laissez-faire capitalism allows people to fall into desperate poverty, they will stop respecting government enforcement of property rights (as a certain K. Marx suggested, and we were beginning to see in the Great Depression).

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#281829: May 30th 2019 at 1:26:54 AM

[up]

Government enforcement of property rights is the use of state power to protect the interests of the rich, hence why a lot of liberal thought is simultaneously reliant on the state and terrified of it. That's not changed since Locke, really, given modern neo/ordoliberals are decidedly not fans of democracy.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#281830: May 30th 2019 at 1:57:40 AM

It was a major criticism of the Division.

The game being about how you're supposed to execute looters in a tragedy.

As apparently the stores need more protection than the poor.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#281831: May 30th 2019 at 3:02:57 AM

A quick explainer re: “heartbeat” abortion bans. Pregnancy is dated back to the last period before the first missed period. However, conception happens two weeks after the last period. So, timeline:

Week 0: Woman or trans man has their period.

Week 2-3: Fertilization occurs and the embryo begins traveling to the uterus

Week 3-4: Embryo attaches to uterus wall

Week 4-5: Woman or trans man misses their period. They may or may not notice, as light bleeding often occurs during implantation.

Week 5-6: Woman or trans man may start to suspect an issue, depending on how regular their cycle is. Very few people have a precise 28 day period, and many issues such as stress, exercise, chronic illness, and weight loss or weight gain can result in irregular or skipped periods.

Week 6-7: Heart cells have begun to form and “beat” even though there is no actual organ formed yet. Zygote is the size of a single sweet pea.

Just for reference.

One additional note: in medieval Europe, pregnancy didn’t typically count until the “quickening,” which is when the fetus began to move independently and kick. This occurs in the 5th or 6th month, and many if not most medieval women did not know they were pregnant until this point, as there were no reliable ways to test for pregnancy and as I mentioned earlier many things can interfere with regular period cycles.

Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#281832: May 30th 2019 at 4:09:22 AM

"Molecules of Freedom", seriously?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#281833: May 30th 2019 at 4:19:43 AM

[up][up] Plus it is actually pretty common that woman lose their baby in the first weeks anyway. something between 10 and 15% of known pregnancies are miscarried within the first 12 weeks...emphasis on "known", it is entirely possible that the number is actually higher but how is a woman suppose to notice that she miscarried if it happens within the first four weeks?

The ironic thing is that a miscarriage is actually a kind of protection. If the mother is too ill/stressed/malnourished to survive a pregnancy, there is a good chance that the body will react on its own. It is out modern medicine which allows humans to "interfere" so to speak and give both mother and child a better chance of survival. So you could argue that abortions are basically even out the odds again.

Edited by Swanpride on May 30th 2019 at 4:19:55 AM

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#281834: May 30th 2019 at 4:51:07 AM

> Wait, isn't this topic banned on the forum?

I'm imagine it's related to starting separate threads about it,you can discus where it's relevant but it can't be the 'topic' of the thread if you know what I mean

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#281835: May 30th 2019 at 6:15:37 AM

[up][up] Early miscarriage can also occur if there’s an issue with the embryo, such as chromosomal problems. About 1 in 4 recognized pregnancies end in an early miscarriage.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#281836: May 30th 2019 at 6:22:10 AM

> "Molecules of Freedom", seriously?

Seriously,not too surprising under Trump's government to be honest,sounds something he'd come with too

Edited by Ultimatum on May 30th 2019 at 1:22:25 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#281837: May 30th 2019 at 6:23:01 AM

What really gets me, is that most of the states that try to ban it, also have really high maternal morality rates.

Here’s Georgia’s

  • 12.7 deaths per 100,000 live births for white women.
  • 43.5 deaths per 100,000 live births for black women.
  • 14.4 deaths per 100,000 live births for women of other races.

Edited by megaeliz on May 30th 2019 at 9:23:23 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#281838: May 30th 2019 at 7:15:02 AM

It's almost like anti-abortion states don't care much about women's lives or something.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#281839: May 30th 2019 at 7:26:36 AM

The best thing ever honestly, is if every Republican politician who ever paid for an abortion was suddenly outed as having done it in front of their base. Then whatever consequences they supported for woman who had abortions was given to them, surely they can live up to their ideals right?

Forenperser Foreign Troper from Germany Since: Mar, 2012
Foreign Troper
#281840: May 30th 2019 at 7:38:03 AM

I mean, I don't really get why most Republicans want to FORCE their view on people by BANNING abortion.

You can be anti-abortion and still be pro-choice.

Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#281841: May 30th 2019 at 7:40:51 AM

Government enforcement of property rights is the use of state power to protect the interests of the rich

And the poor. Y'know, when small businesses aren't forced to sell out by "men of honor." They might be forced to sell by inability to compete, of course, unless the state protects their interests through subsidies that may or may not be a good idea.

You're right that liberals have always grappled with the issue of state power, but that's because we know that it's both necessary for a functioning society and ripe for abuse, corruption, and plain illegal shit. We've been grappling with some variant of that since Juvenal, actually: who is going to watch the watchmen?

(Which, incidentally, is why Libertarians tend to be so masturbatorily-fond of the militia movement and the right to bear arms, even if militias and gun owners rarely care about libertarian ideals. They buy into the idea that if we want to keep the government under control, we make the government afraid of an armed populace, totally ignoring the massive disparities in actual power.)

[up]No, you really can't. If you believe that a fetus is a person, then you believe that abortion is murder. And if you believe abortion is murder and don't want to ban it, then you've got a seriously unorthodox viewpoint.

Edited by Ramidel on May 30th 2019 at 6:42:33 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#281842: May 30th 2019 at 7:50:10 AM

The real inconsistency of Republican politics on abortion isn't the desire to ban abortion in and of itself. That is at least reasonable if you accept their viewpoint on the rights of a fetus. We can and do disagree with it, but it's not inconsistent.

The problem is that they also want to ban contraception, sex education, maternal care, post-natal care, and almost everything else that would help people not have unwanted babies, protect the life and health of the mother, and help the child be successful after it pops out.

[down] Recognizing that people can and will have abortions even if you personally don't approve of it is not a "pro-life" stance; it's a practical one. That's not the problem.

Edited by Fighteer on May 30th 2019 at 10:52:07 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#281843: May 30th 2019 at 7:50:29 AM

^You can also be personally conflicted about it, or prefer different options for yourself and/or your partner, while still supporting others' choice to choose the option that best works for them.

It's been fun.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#281844: May 30th 2019 at 7:53:55 AM

I'm fairly certain "I don't approve of abortion, but also don't think it should be illegal" is a commonly held opinion on the matter. Opinions are much less clear cut than they're often made out to be.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#281845: May 30th 2019 at 7:59:28 AM

[up][up][up]Nah, their beliefs are consistent, just completely reality-proof. Remember that they're real big on abstinence. ("You shouldn't be having sex at all unless you're married and willing to make babies.")

The Catholic Church, meanwhile, holds a Dominionist position on sex ed and contraception but combines it with "and we'll help with pre-and-post-natal care and social welfare programs, preferably state-funded" which is a coherent position even if we think they're wrong, and even if they're putting the cart well before the horse in practice (something Pope Francis is trying to reverse).

GoldenKaos Captain of the Dead City from Cirith Ungol Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Captain of the Dead City
#281846: May 30th 2019 at 8:02:29 AM

They seem to believe the world should be a certain ideal state where everyone is celibate before marriage, everyone is heterosexual AND cisgender, and everyone has a traditional family structure and are entirely self-sufficient so that they don't have to pay for your healthcare, and where medical complications and crimes don't exist. And they will wage a demonising culture war and pass legislation to try and create that 'ideal state', because fuck everyone who doesn't want to do that I guess.

It's like they've taken the moral absolutist parts of Christianity and applied it to their own personal traditional worldview. Also the whole salt of the earth directive, which is a sorta commandment for Christians to go out and be a good influence on the world, which has unfortunately been interpreted as "so, theocracy? Theocracy!" by a lot of people over the ages.

[up][up] That's essentially my position. I don't like it, but I can't justify banning it. Or interfering with anyone's access to any adjacent services.

Edited by GoldenKaos on May 30th 2019 at 4:10:00 PM

"...in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach."
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#281847: May 30th 2019 at 8:19:51 AM

[up] Another reason why someone may support it, is that banning it just pushes it underground. People who really want an abortion will figure out a way to get one, and I would rather it was safe and accessible, rather than in some back room somewhere.

Edited by megaeliz on May 30th 2019 at 11:22:51 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#281848: May 30th 2019 at 8:26:08 AM

I don't think even the most intense abortion proponent likes the idea of terminating a pregnancy. That's absurd. There are no genocidal maniacs running around telling women to abort their babies in the name of sexual freedom or anything like that.

Recognizing that abortion is a necessity and a right doesn't equate to going, "Yay, baby murder, woo!"

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#281849: May 30th 2019 at 8:52:07 AM

I don't think even the most intense abortion proponent likes the idea of terminating a pregnancy. That's absurd. There are no genocidal maniacs running around telling women to abort their babies in the name of sexual freedom or anything like that.
And yet that's the strawman consistently presented by the right. "The left revels in murdering not just fetuses but newborn babies!"

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#281850: May 30th 2019 at 9:16:23 AM

[up][up][up]Yeah, I don't think we want to go back to the days of coat hangers or deliberate falls down stairs.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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